What is this gun?

O

Ozzieman

New member
Need help with a gun. The attached photos show one of the 10 that a friend that passed away owned. I am trying to help his wife, getting an idea the value of the collection (and there are a lot).
These are a strange lot, when I first saw the photos I thought they were some type of 03-A3 but the photos were poor. There are very few markings on the gun and only the “ERA” was clear.
The odd thing about the gun and I pulled the bolts on two of them, is that they appeared to be smooth bores. The bores were clean and shiny and no pits or corrosion but they looked like a very good shotgun barrel. They appeared to be somewhere around 30 cal.
The hand written notes with the gun had very little information other than “Springfield imports” and serial numbers.
Sorry for the photos, I was handling the gun and she was taking the photos.
 
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Nice K98 I picked up from her with an odd ring clip on the end of the barrel that can be removed.
Serial numbers match and 44 stamped on the barrel.

The real cream of the crop is a Colt 1911 RAF 455 Eley. The gun is in good condition with a good barrel.
I don’t know if the magazine is correct and I haven’t been able to find any markings on the magazine.
 
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first three pics are of an eddiestone model 1917 enfield.

be very careful with it if your going to shoot it. most were 30.06 but there are some in 303 britsih

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1917_Enfield

show the top of the action and any marking on the k98 looks like it might be a russian capture gun. the markings will tell.
 
That looks like M1917 Enfield to me. That rear sight is the give away. Do a quick google search on it and see if it matches up with what you have.

Hope this helps.

edit:Awww...just beaten to the punch!
 
The first is an Enfield Pattern 14 rifle, distinguishable from a M1917 because of the "broad arrow" marking. ERA is Enfield Royal Armory, if I am not mistaken.

Second is a K98k, not real sure what the threaded cap is for.
 
several american companies were manufacturing enfield pattern 14 rifles on behalf of great britain in WWI. when the US entered the war we couldn't manufacture 1903s fast enough so they rechambered a number of pattern 14s from 303 brit to 30-06 and called them the US model 1917 30 cal. you are looking at either a 303 or 30-06
 
Thanks every one, once I got the “1917” I found mountains of data on them.
The only thing I can’t find is why two of them would be smooth bores.
 
1917 actually came with a number of bores. I've never heard of the smooth bore but I have heard of 2, 5, and 6 channel rifling
 
"ERA is Enfield Royal Armory, if I am not mistaken."

Sorry, but you're mistaken.

ERA is the manufacturer's marking used by Eddystone Remington Arms.

The markings on the gun are 100% indicative of a Pattern 1914 Mk I or Mk I* rifle, chambered in .303 British.

Make NO attempt to fire .30-06 ammunition through it.

If it chambered and fired, you'd be in a world of hurt.
 
The rifling on the 17 was not very deep. Without a chamber cast or stamped marking, the only way to tell whether or not it is 06 or 303 is to "slug" the bore. The 06 will have a diameter of .308, while the 303 will have a diameter of .311.
 
Again thanks every one, and there is no plan on firing any of them without being checked out first, and about a week of cleaning.
 
I've seen one of those threaded muzzle caps before- once. I was told by the guy selling it that it was a crown protector. The bbl was counter bored about 1". Not sure if I have 100% faith in that info, but it was what the guy said. And I'm about to give myself drain brammage trying to remember what country/maker was responsible for it and when.
 
Ozzieman - The first three pictures, I have to agree with Mike on this one, that it is a Pattern of 1914 in .303 British, most definitely not a Model of 1917 in .30-06! I know this because I have two such rifles in my battery, one's my Dad's that he has passed on to me and another's mines. Here's some pics to better show them and carefully note the proof marks, well as the rear sights.

Dad's Winchester:

winp14.jpg


My Eddystone:

eddyp14.jpg


Eddy's rear sights:

eddyrearsights.jpg


Eddy's proof marks:

eddyproof.jpg


eddyproof2.jpg


Another thing, stopping short of chamber cast or slugging the bore, if, (a BIG if) the barrel is the original one, then it should have the markings on top near the front sight to show its calibre and details of proofing, like on this:

eddybarrel.jpg


My dad's doesn't have this one as the original one was rooted many years ago of firing corrosive ammunition and neglect by the previous owner (was a professional hunter), so it had have a new barrel fitted.

I must add to what Mike said of chambering a .30-06 in a .303, can't happen. I know this because I had stupidly many years ago to try find out the difference. The .30-06 round would stop short in the chamber of its length. And vice-versa, since the .303 is a rimmed round. So, please don't do what I did as a naive 17 year old at that time and have it checked over by someone more knowledgable about the old girls (which we did much later).

Regards to the 'smooth-bore' issue, well, that is strange. I would know what to say if I had the chance to inspect the barrel personally, my best guess at this stage is that the barrel had been 'shot-out' and the real way to confirm this is by the use of the armourer's wear gauges that had different sizes of the bore. A good mate of mines has these and it is used quite often for checking the .303 barrels, on not just P-14s, but SMLEs as well.

Hope this is of some help and best of luck cleaning the old girls, always nice pieces of history.
 
"I must add to what Mike said of chambering a .30-06 in a .303, can't happen."

I never say never, because I saw someone chamber a .30-06 round in their Pattern 14 years ago. It was done as a demonstration.

The critical factor?

A SEVERELY erroded bore, benefits of hot cordite, corrosive priming, and years of use and abuse.

It literally had the worst bore I've ever seen.

The leade was completely gone and the metal looked like alligator skin it was so brutalized.

There was absolutely no rifling in the rear 1/3rd of the barrel.

The last 2/3rds of the barrel was pitted and VERY dark.

The amazing thing about it?

That rifle still shot 2" groups at 100 yards...
 
Mike - "I never say never, because I saw someone chamber a .30-06 round in their Pattern 14 years ago. It was done as a demonstration."

Agreed, then again, this is all from my experience dealing with P-14s over many years of target shooting.

I must admit, in all honesty, that was a very dangerous sort of demostration to do and I wouldn't even attempt it, just for entertainment's sake, even if the rifle itself was rooted. Of course, the P-14's action is extremely strong and rugged one, but I, and this is just me, would not put it through that kind of abuse.

I admit to cringing every time I watch someone shoot military corrosive ammo through perfectly good samples of history, but that's their rifles, their call, who am I to rain on their parade? *shrugs* Just so long they take all the pre-cautions of making sure they get rid of the corrosive residues after the day's shoot and look after them with all the care and respect in the world.

"A SEVERELY erroded bore, benefits of hot cordite, corrosive priming, and years of use and abuse.

It literally had the worst bore I've ever seen.

The leade was completely gone and the metal looked like alligator skin it was so brutalized.

There was absolutely no rifling in the rear 1/3rd of the barrel.

The last 2/3rds of the barrel was pitted and VERY dark.

The amazing thing about it?

That rifle still shot 2" groups at 100 yards... "

*chuckles* Don't I know this story all too well? This happens a lot to the old SMLEs here, especially No.1 Mk IIIs. When Dad and I bought our first rifle for the military competitions, it was an old Savage SMLE No.4 with a 2-groove barrel. The cheapest ammo we could get at the time was the old .303 mil-surp from Pakistan.

We hated that Pakistan mil-surp ammo big time, not because of the clean-up afterwards, but it used to hang-fire, sometimes badly, making things down-right dangerous. I remember very well this one hang-fire, it was drilled into us that if a hang-fire happened, wait 30 seconds with the rifle pointed down-range, if nothing happens after a good 30 seconds, then you can eject the offending round out.

Well, you can guess what happened here. Click. OK, wait out. Is it going to go off or what? BANG! :eek: I got the shock of my life when nearly 30 seconds had expired and the round up the sprout finally went off! My dad nearly had a heart attack at that time also, because he was next to me, keeping track of time and ready to help out. His expression was priceless though, you had to be there to see it. :D

That said, the Savage No.4 is still in our collection and its barrel has been and still is well-looked after, which makes the point that, if all well-looked after, there shouldn't be any dramas. Sadly, there have been people who have rode hard the old girls and neglected them to the point of falling apart. Despite that, I have seen some old SMLEs still plugging away without fail with its barrel about stuffed.

My Dad's P-14 was a very good case of that when he 'rescued' it from a gunshop and it took a great deal of work to get it shooting well again, going from barely hitting paper at 100 metres to today, when you know where it shoots for you, it will flat-out shoot good scores, nothing flashy. No wonder why my Dad called the Winchester P-14 of his, "His Old Faithful". It will be a cherished heirloom, because I have many memories of my Dad shooting the old girl and he was at his happiest, no matter what good or bad day he was having. :)
 
Bluey,

He didn't fire the gun with a .30-06 cartridge, he only chambered it to show me how badly off the barrel on it was.

He said that when he fired it with .303 the cases came out with badly expanded necks and, about 30% of the time, the necks were cracked.


"We hated that Pakistan mil-surp ammo big time, not because of the clean-up afterwards, but it used to hang-fire, sometimes badly"

Very familiar with that junk. Former coworker of mine had a hang fire with one. He ejected the case without thinking and it final ignited when it was on its way to the ground.
 
Mike - Ah, gotcha, mate, no worries. That reminds me of a mate who was shooting this SMLE No.1 Mk III one time, he showed me the once-fired cases afterwards. Remember, these were all brand new factory .303 rounds from Winchester. The cases were all like this crazy drunken state, with the body badly swollen and tilted to one side. I was like, huh? How did that get to that? :confused:

So, we did a bit of inquistion as to hunt down the trouble. Turns out the chamber was badly reamed, so the wear and tear over time just made the problem of "drunken" brass worse. The Smelly still continued to function without dramas and I never heard from him again after that.

"Very familiar with that junk. Former coworker of mine had a hang fire with one. He ejected the case without thinking and it final ignited when it was on its way to the ground"

LOL Well, that would have been a very interesting time! I sure would be using some choice adjectives and checking my underwear afterwards! :D
 
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