What is "the truth" about guns?

B

BTR

New member
First off, please don't get angry at me. I'm not turning into an "anti" or anything of the sort.

I've read several books, and countless articles about gun control, and thought a lot about it. The conclusions I've drawn are pro-RKBA, just like any of us here. However, I am getting frustrated with the whole issue, and I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the basic "truth" of guns is unknowable. Both sides tell the truth, and both sides lie too. How can one "know" what the truth is?

One side has thousands of dead bodies to point to and yell "See! Guns are bad!" The other has, thousands or millions of living people, supposedly because they used guns for protection, to point to and say "See! Guns are good!"

One points to few kids who "accidentally" shoot each other, and the other points to kids drowning in buckets, dying in cars, etc.

One says most murders are people "just like you and me" and the one says that murders are drug-addicted gang-bangers, etc.

I'm sick of the contradictory statistics offered. We take high number for self-defense, and combine them with low numbers for crimes to "prove" that guns do more good than harm. We claim most defensive uses go unreported, and pump up the numbers, but we don't consider how many gun crimes may go unreported. We claim for every crime there are five or so defensive uses, but how do we really know? You can't count people whose live have been saved; it's impossible. I don't believe the US would have 700,000 to 2,000,000 murders a year, except for defensive uses. Those numbers are too high to claim for lives saved; they may be accurate for defensive uses, but know one knows what would have happened for most of these cases.

And the anti-gun lobby lies, claiming almost no one uses a gun in self-defense, and with the whole, "if you have a gun you'll knock off friends 'n family." They claim 200 self-defense shootings a year, when there is more than that- but how much more, no one knows for sure.

And as for guns promoting freedom…please don't get angry at what I say here…I don't know how we can know what the absolute truth is here either. I love JPFO, and their research, but I can't say if we didn't have guns that I would "know" we would turn into a police state with genocide around the bend. The founders had the political philosophy of arming everyman, and it is a very old one too. I believe in it very strongly, but who knows the future?

I'm tired of feeling a vague, stupid and unreasonable guilt when I hear about a handgun murder. I'm tired of a weird feeling of justification when I read about a knife murder. Maybe I've been worked over too much by the media.

But I love guns, and I'll never give mine up. I love shooting, the range, and the people. Guns are a real symbol of freedom for me. But I can't say I "know" the truth about guns- other than this- The second amendment insures us a right, and good people with guns help. But that's all I know. My views haven't changed, but I'm not going to claim I "know the truth."

Does anyone have any thoughts to share? A pep talk? Anything but an angry message?
 
Regardless of goodness or evil inherint in guns and gun ownership, note the willingness of the antis to commit MURDER to remove them from our hands. To them, ends justify the means and I have heard quite a few state that they are willing to take us up on the "cold dead fingers" offer. Makes me ever less eager to cooperate :(
 
You sure touch on a sore spot for me too. If every weapon in the whole world disappeared overnight, I would still want a method to defend myself from the inevitable dim bulb with a rock. However, I too feel awful when I hear about some curious kid getting killed or killing another because his parents didn't have the sense to protect their child from a dangerous tool (as is lye and bleach, which everyone locks up from the kiddies). I wonder how mant crimes are caused because someone stole a gun from a house (I lost three during a daytime break-in. A long story that I'll tell if asked). Then I wonder how many kids and adults are alive because they did have rapid access to a gun and knew how to use it.

It is all very gray. The only black and white is when someone stops a crime and even that is questioned.

I support the whole of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. I also believe that we convieniently forget that the 2nd A say "A well regulated Militia". That means every citizen must not only have access to arms but MUST be trained in their effective and safe use. Then the other side of the coin is if training is required, what guarantees us that the training regulators won't become gatekeepers to restrict gun ownership. Guns are too dangerous to leave in untrained hands and taking guns away from citizens is too dangerous to our constitutional form of government.

It is a troublesome issue.
 
BTR, I admire you. And, I wouldn't worry about you 'becoming' an anti-self defense activist. You think too logically and too passionately. The other side does not devote the mental effort you invest in this issue.

The truth? Well, like most, or perhaps all of life, the truth is obviously not black and white. Guns have certainly caused a great deal of pain and suffering ever since they were invented. They are tools, sophisticated tools. Like a wrench or an airplane, they are man-made objects, which can serve good or evil.

I believe there are many more good people than bad in the world. I believe most people want to live their lives in peace. Thus, if both good people and bad hold guns, good people will use those firearms for good purposes in far greater numbers than bad.

I accept the positive cost / benefit analysis of firearms. No one will ever know the exact numbers, so those arguments will go on forever.

I also believe in the constancy of human behavior. People who seek power have a tendency to get carried away with themselves. This has been true for eons - 'power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'. This doesn't change my belief that most people are good.

However, when evil people attain power, and good citizens are unarmed, then terrible things can occur. No, we don't know the future. But, it is reasonable and commonly accepted to consider possible and probable future scenarios based upon past lessons. We received some terrible lessons in the 20th Century.

The U.S. is not terribly old - around 225 years. A veritable child-nation. It is rather unique. A combination of fantastic liberty, coupled with personal responsibility. Just as there is no 'truth' to guns per se, our nation is not perfect. But, through a magic combination of founders, principles, population mix and geography, we have built perhaps the most fantastic nation ever seen on this earth.

It will not last forever - logic tells us that someday, somehow in the future the U.S. will evolve, or devolve into something else.

Some nations dissolve into genocide, of large or small proportions. Genocide, like massacres, occurs due to a disparity of force. I believe this is an immutable principle, like gravity or the speed of light. Perhaps human beings will someday evolve to where they will not be inclined to kill each other. I don't think we're anywhere near that point. We seem more fascinated by violence, not less.

So, until humans truly become consistently nonviolent, good people will need good weapons to protect themselves from bad people and bad governments. Bad governments will always try to disarm good people, because those good citizens are a threat to absolute power. This goes on and on, ad infinitum, IMHO.

In sum, I believe that it is immoral and foolhardy to disarm good people. It is immoral because the right of a family to defend themselves is sacrosanct. It is immoral to disarm people, with the false promise of governmental protection - protection the government reasonably knows cannot be delivered in time. And, 'reasonable' gun control that cynically evolves into greater and greater governmental control is immoral as well. And, I believe that a reasonable and honest appraisal of history and human behavior supports all of these conclusions.

So, I agree with you - there is a lot of 'noise' out there. There is the 'noise' from a media that is grinding a gun control ax without giving a damn about truth and logic - it simply sells. There is 'noise' from companies like Citibank that believe they are being good corporate citizens by helping to disarm good people. And, there is plenty of 'noise’ from politicians that make false promises about being able to protect our children and us by stripping our liberties.

Keep trying to see through the noise. Keep studying, debating and reading. Listen to your heart and your logic. Keep testing your hypotheses against the best facts. And, keep searching for the 'truth'. Good people like you will find it.

It is people like you that bring me back to TFL over and over. Thank you.

Ps - 'That Every Man Be Armed' by Stephen Halbrook helped me gain much more perspective on this issue. It was heavily cited by Judge Sam Cummings in U.S. v. Emerson, with good reason. This debate is actually thousands of years old.

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 20, 2000).]
 
Double tap - the board seems to be stuttering a bit today ...


[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited February 20, 2000).]
 
Thoughts such as these allow me to "decide" where my own opinion lies. Thanks for bringing 'em up. I think it wonderful that we kick back & do a retrospect once in a while. Keeps us where we live.

An old quote from somebody, maybe me ;) "the mark of intellectual honesty is to consider alternative points of view." I drive myself crazy (short trip ;)) constantly in an attempt to "know" what really is. I think I know, but do I? hmmm ... I'll have to think about that.

Lott's study (More Guns, Less Crime) was probably the most definitive study on the issue. The antis disclaim the whole thing re to the statistical methodology used. I'm not enough of a stat-guru to dispute it either way.

From a personal standpoint, I know that I have prevented some criminal intent towards me & mine without shooting at all. Personally, I'm running 100%.

Which brings up the point that the antis don't like to say. Their stats mention something like "43Xs more likely to die by your own gun than KILL a BG" or similar lines. What is left out of this statement (if true at all) is that you don't have to kill the BG to save your life or stop the criminal intent. I've never yet screwed up with a firearm (except that one time I shot a hole through my window w/the AR15 :() in over 40 yrs of shooting (which in itself is a stat = 100K+ handlings versus 1X screw-up). But, I may "go crazy," or similar tomorrow & criminally use a firearm. Who could tell .... whatever drives someone to finally reach that point & go off the deep end? Got me there, pal.

To prevent a person from possessing an item because they MIGHT use it wrongfully, goes against everything this country (& I) stand for.

In the meatime, I'll enjoy the freedoms we have & defend them to my utmost.

Will some previously law-abiding citizen criminally use a firearm tomorrow? Yes, with absolute utmost certainty. A statistical given. Should we prevent evrybody from having access because the statistically insignificant "go off?" Not on your life.

We live in a "free" society & crap that we perpetrate upon another is one price of that freedom; from Richard Jewell getting raked over the coals for the Atlanta Olymic bombing
(freedom of press) to the Atlanta day-trader shootings and all the everyday shootings that go on - not to mention the hi-way deaths in the name of free travel. It goes on & on.

Any death is a personal tragedy, but viewed in the big picture, a statistical blip that doesn't even register except that the media hypes it up.

Remember, for every gun (we'll leave the person who used the gun out of this for the moment) used for criminality, there are ~99.8%+ that aren't. Seen any news clips lately that said, "Bob's guns weren't involved with anything bad today!" Those type articles would fill a book - everyday. We only get to see the bad stuff. That's what sells.

Go take a walk, BTR - a big breather. Don't get too burnt out on this. The issue will be here tomorrow (count on it) & we need such as yourself who do question the validity of both sides.
 
Labgrade,

You're darned tootin' my guns weren't used for anything bad today! ;)

BTR,

I think you know the truth. In fact, I am sure of it.

"Accident" is a misnomer where firearm-related incidents are concerned. Guns almost never go "BANG" on their own. Someone pulls the trigger. They may not have intended to hurt anyone when they did it, but they put their finger inside the trigger guard of a loaded weapon, squeezed the trigger, and released the firing pin. Not at all an accident. Lack of education and training? Without a doubt. But the word "accident" implies a set of conditions over which there was no control. It is generally used by the anti-freedom crowd in an effort to alieviate someone from personal responsibility in the matter. Next time someone reports an "accidental" shooting, look to see where the blame properly belongs and see if the person at fault is held accountable. My money is that they won't be.

Intentional use of a firearm against another person in a non-defensive manner is just about the worse criminal offense I can think of. I'd love to see mandatory sentences (without parole) for people who do such things. Maybe an extra 10-15 years on top of the time to be served for the source crime (assault, robbery, rape, etc.). Send a message that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated by society. "Rehabilitation" for a person who is willing to shoot another person is a VERY long shot at best. Dole out a little punishment for a change and see what happens.

Like I said, you know the truth about the matter. It doesn't make it suck any less when a little kid gets shot, but the fact remains that it wasn't, in all likelihood, an "accident".

[This message has been edited by Bob Locke (edited February 20, 2000).]
 
I know only a tiny bit of truth but you're welcome to it.

The truth I know is that I'm not qualified to dispute Lott, and I'm not qualified to defend him.

The rest of the truth is that I don't care. Cost/benefit analysis is nice if it goes our way, but it isn't the reason I believe in RKBA. I believe in RKBA because I, as an individual, have seen evidence that in my life it's the best way to operate.

If the cost/benefit analyses showed that more guns were used to harm than help, it wouldn't change the way I feel about RKBA. That's because the guns are not the cause of either result. The humans are the cause. Changing the guns, in any way, will have little or no effect. The humans will find a way to do what they're going to do. I can't control them no matter how I try, so the next best thing is to control my own life and be prepared to defend myself if necessary. At present that isn't possible but I'm working on it.
 
I have a comment about guns for defense.

RKBA is important. But I get the impression from this forum that we consider guns the first and last line of defense in our home.

Now I have seen many smart people post wise comments about defense. TFL also has a section on knives and other gears. But still i get that impression.

Defense requires several elements. See you opponent. Preferably see your opponent approaching. Create and hold advantage on your turf. Defensive layout of home archetecture and furniture. Awareness of your environment if you are not defending at home. And multiple range of weapons.

Learning to use a gun effectively is important for a given range. (Close quarter combat?) But we should know how to use our fist, elbow, nails, teeth, phone cord, steak knife, baseball bat, golf clubs, flower vase, paper weight, and so on. In short learn to be leathal in mentality and training. Anything in our hands could become a weapon. SO A HANDGUN IS NOT THE ONLY LINE OF DEFENSE. It's just easier to bring deadly force with. Not to mention we could always lose the gun. In a struggle, in a theft, and such.

OK, having said that, I am going to get a weapon, learn to use it well. Get my wife to use it well. (no kids yet) No reason I should feel naked without a handheld firearm.

I've heard stories of friends who suffered home-invasion robbery. The perps followed my friends car home from the shopping mall. The invasion is literal. I've started taking different route to and from work, to and from shopping, and to and from party clubs. Just another thing to keep a criminal away from my home. I plant thorny shrubbs next to my windows. I took down a piece of the dry wall at the stair case so I could cover the first floor from the second floor.

Truly, it's people who kill people. And some people are more lethal. Others are more prepared. This is one competition I don't intend to lose by default.

yy.

p.s. did that sould like a lot of ranting? I intended to add comments about defending our lives. :)
 
BTR...

The human mind is a very complex organ. It can reason, and debate, and contemplate, and memorize, and so much more. We humans are a very intelligent species of predator. That predatory instinct can be used both creatively and destructively. How we use our instincts is much how we are judged in life by our fellow humans.

To some, the characteristic of having high moral and ethical standards is absent. When this adsence occurs, many other factors seem to follow, which can attribute to a variety of criminal acts. And regardless of what that criminal intent may be, humans are capable of using an infinite number of "weapons" to commit their crimes.

Guns on the other hand are not complex. They cannot think, or reason, or feel pain. They are mechanical tools. Tools that can be used for good things, or tools that can be used for bad things. Good people use them for good things, and bad people use them for bad things.

All people are not good, nor are they all bad. But guns are simply tools.

You can easily substitute the gun with a pen, or a hammer, or a paint brush, or a microphone, etc. They are all tools...alone, they are completely unable to hurt anyone. What they may allow a good person or a bad person to produce is entirely dependent upon "how" they are used. As with a gun.

Take the pen for example: We are all capable of writing something cleaver or funny or heartfelt, but we are also capable of writing something awful, hurtful, or even criminal. Which one we actually produce is much the product of whether we are good people or bad people.

Anti-gun advocates believe (using the pen example) that it is the pen that is evil, it is the pen that writes hurtful sentences or forges stolen checks, or writes death threats.

Who should you believe?
 
"My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with facts!"

That's the group for whom the gun-control issue is "unknowable".

Lott's research has been mentioned. Dr. Gary Kleck of FSU has done statistical research. The book "Under the Gun" by Wright, Rossi & Daly has been out since 1985, and they've done a couple more.

All this work essetially supports the pro-gun folks' opinions.

Justice Scalia's writings and the 1992 case, US vs. Urriquez-Verdugo support our view as to an individual right under the Second Amendment.

The relative hazard of guns versus other dangers is available from such sources as the Center for Disease Control and also the New England Journal of Medicine. Guns are a relatively low hazard as compared to medical mistakes and automobiles, as well as non-gun violence.

Most folks just don't want to think; or, they'd rather "think" in slogans or sound-bites.

Regards, Art
 
The basic "truth" is very simple and clear.

1. A gun is a tool, an inanimate object useful for some tasks.

2. A gun is a dangerous object (as are steak knives and Drain-O); used improperly it can cause harm, and harmful use is unusually easy.

3. What one does with an object dictates what happens from its use. Strike someone's head with a bat or a bullet, harm ensues; the tool doesn't matter, it is the act which is good or bad.

That's the truth.

Oh...one more truth:

4. Many people attribute good or evil to inanimate objects. It is hard to convince them of the truth: the good or evil is within the person weilding the object, not the object itself.
 
Ok, enough of this deep thinking.
There is a line in a good goofy movie I like, called "Army of Darkness".
The character has become split in two, one good and one bad.
They are fighting it out, and the good one turns to the bad one and says, "Good Ash, (characters name)bad Ash, I'm the one with the gun!"
Life, sometimes, is that simple.
You are either armed and can defend yourself,
or you are unarmed and you and your family WILL be victims.
 
It's very sad that Americans tend to place blame on anything and everything other than there own actions.
Personal Responsability is the KEY to the future.
 
Nebob, one of my favorites. The .wav file is floating around the web somewhere. I used it as background sound on my old webpage.

(But the actual quote is just "Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.")
One of the coolest films of all time IMHO. Another classic line:

"You found me beautiful, once . . ."
"Baby, you got REAL ugly!" Whack!
 
Thanks, all. Sometimes I just get frustrated trying to dig up the "truth" from people who contradict each other. At the very least, our guns are an insurance policy, one that we hopefully will never need.
 
The truth is, without privately owned guns,there will be no freedom in the US or in any other nation on earth. We (the people who believe in the constitutionally mandated acknowledgement of the the right to keep and bear arms) are the last bastion of freedom in the world ; that is why we must be disarmed. Our nation, by the grace of GOD,has stood guard in an occupied world for 225 years; without us they would know no freedom. I will no longer respect the opinion or propaganda of those who would dismantle that legacy. Give me liberty or give me death, grey hair or not.
 
The way i see it, there is nothing "good" or "bad" about guns. Is a crowbar a "bad" thing? It's used in burglaries all over the world. Weapons are just tools. It's not the guns that kill. It's the ppl holding them. I use weapons for that reason, it's my profession. That does not make the tools evil, maybe i am, i dont know or care.

I do not, however, think that guns somehow means you are free. Or that you cannot be free if you are not allowed to have them, and that everyone should be allowed to own them. I dont know about you, but a nation where every citizen has his/her own class III weapon scare me. It would make my work so much harder... ;)
 
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