What is the point of the .41 mag?

kahrma

New member
I am not trying to anger anyone but I just can't see why this cartridge exists:confused:

It came out after the .44 mag so what gives? I don't see what it can do that a .44 mag can't.

I have been told that the only reason for its existance was that people were unwilling to download their .44 mags. They only wanted full magnum loads in their gun so the .41 mag was developed.

I have also read that it was developed for law enforcment because the .44 mag was too powerful and in some situations a .357 mag was not enough.

I really don't know why it exists:confused:

I am not saying that it shouldn't exist but just wondering why and how it does? I'm sure I'm missing something like it is a great pig hunting round or something but I don't hunt anymore so I'm out of the loop I guess.
 
You need to read a little.

The .41 was originally conceived to be the perfect "tweener" cartridge for police -- more powerful than the .357 Magnum, yet not as powerful, and hard to shoot, as the .44 Mag.

It was a great concept that just never really caught on.

One of its big attractions for handgun hunters is that it has a flatter trajectory than the .44 Mag.
 
You also want to recall that when it came out in the late '60s, expanding ammo for police wasn't in any kind of advanced state. Many agencies were using warm 38Spl in their 357s because plain lead hollowpoints will expand OK at 900 - 1,000fps, but JHP technology just sucked. The 44Mag was "pre-expanded" all right, but too hot.

Thus, the 41Maggie.

It's still a GOOD cartridge :).
 
It exists for the same reason the 10mm Auto does, as a sort of "ideal combat round", the formula for which (advanced by Cooper, Keith, Jordan and others) worked out to a .40-ish caliber bullet, weighing 200-ish grains and clocking 1100-ish feet per second.
 
With modern .41 maggie ammo, you can take down most North American game, yet at reduced recoil (than .44 magnum).

I can't figure out why the .41 mag has NOT become more popular. It offers a lot of performance without the excessive recoil of .44 magnum and beyond. If the .41 mag cartridge actually was more common and cheaper, I'd use it more ofton!!
 
Try Bill Jordan's book: No Second Place Winner.
I was trained on it as part of a test group in Kansas troopers. Jordan came up for one weekend.
The M58 was the most I could handle. And today is the most I would want.
Had the police load come out on time, the caliber might of made it. But only the Remington heavy load was made available. So we reloaded for the range. And the caliber was doomed for police action.
KHP now uses the G21, or so the Colonel told me last trip back.
If I still served, I think I would want the G20/29.
Most were happy with the M19 Smith.

BTW, my Dad gave away my signed book.:(
 
I never could understand why the .44 mag exists, other than to be able to fire a big-bore magnum out of the marginally strong N frame.

In a suitably strong revolver, the much older .45 Colt totally outclasses it, and looks cooler doing it.:cool:
 
THE POINT?

Because my 5.5" Redhawk will launch a .410" 170g JHC at 1670fps.
And it doesn't get as hot as my 44 during a long IPSC field-course.
And I got bullets and cases for it.
And some other stuff.

More calibers = better.
 
It exists so I can load a 210 gr XTP at 1100 FPS. Almost ideal. The Win Silvertip's 175 gr at 1250 is a great factory PD load. Very controllable from a 4" Mod 57. Mike Irwin recommended this load and for that I thank him.
 
Why does it exist?

So we can buy great old S&W N-frames chambered for the round, that's why!
S&W MODEL 57-1
orig.jpg

Geez, I thought everyone knew that!
 
The main funtion of the 41 Mg. is to sell more handguns--which it did--for a while.

It is really too much for police work, but is about as good as it gets for deer hunting with a handgun. Personally, I use the 44 Mg. but I quite agree that a 41 on deer is just as good.

It offers a little variety now and then and a litle variety now and then is a good thing (don't tell your wife that though).
 
What I meant by my question was, what can the .41 mag do that can't be done with either a .44 mag or a .357 mag?

I have read the ballistics charts and I don't see the .41 out preforming the .44 mag in any real way.

Do you think that Elmer Keith would have settled for the .41 mag when there was a .44 mag around? I doubt it.

A .41 mag for police work? When was the last time I saw a cop with a .41 mag, hmmm? NEVER!

The .41 mag may not be useless but if it didn't exist I doubt it would be invented today. There is no need or niche that it fills today. If you really need .41 mag ballistics, I'm sure that someone can download some .44 mag ammo for you:p
 
The .41 Magnum was introduced in 1964. This was before the 10MM had been invented and before the hi-cap 9MMs became popular. The revolver was king with the cops.

However, ammo was not nearly as advanced as it is now. Hollow point bullets were rare in handgun calibers and usually didn't work very well. Many agencies issued round-nose lead ammo and this was found wanting.

Some people, including Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton, both cops and writers for various firearms journals, argued in favor of revolvers using lead, semi-wadcutter ammo. The problem was that the .38 Special was not a great man-stopper with this load, and the high velocity of the .357 Magnum caused the bore to become terribly leaded after only a few rounds, ruining accuracy and requiring strenuous cleaning. They envisioned a big bore revolver using lead semi-wadcutters that would deliver good energy at lower velocities avoiding the leading problems. They felt that the .44 and .45 calibers using 240-250 grain bullets might be a bit much on recoil. So, they argued for a .41 caliber using 200 grain bullets as this combo would recoil less.

Now, a .44 can shoot 200 grain bullets, but this is a bit light for the bore and penetration would not be as good as with the same weight in a bullet of a smaller frontal area. In other words, a 200 grain .41 outperforms a 200 grain .44 bullet, hence the decision to create a new caliber. Of course, marketing had a lot to do with it as well, and that's why the "Magnum" name got hung on the new cartridge. There was no readily available non-Magnum .41, but S&W wanted to sell to folks other than cops, and the word Magnum would increase sales.

Unfortunately, Jordan and Skelton wanted a cartridge throwing that 200 grain slug at about 900 FPS, and what the ammo makers delivered actually clocked about 1,300 FPS. This was too much for most shooters, especially female officers and the guns were not popular. The large size and weight of the N frame gun was also unpleasant for many cops.

The .41 was used by a number of law agencies around the country. The San Antonio PD used it, as did the San Francisco PD. A sheriff's Dept. in PA used it, and my M58 is a veteran of this agency. There were a few others, but it never really caught on. It was replaced by .357s when better HP ammo became available, and all revolvers fell from favor when the hi-cap semi-autos started appearing.

Some shooters like the .41 because it tends to have a flatter trajectory than the .44 Magnum. A .41 will take a little more pressure than the .44 (in S&W products) because the chamber walls are a touch thicker on the smaller bore.

So, to answer your question, the .41 was meant to be an efficient big bore round with less recoil than the .44 using lead bullets. In theory it is a neat idea. In reality, it was not the best choice for police work, afterall.

I like my .41, and it has enough power to settle anything's hash that I feel the need to shoot with it. The M58 is lighter and more compact than other N frame Magnums due to its fixed sights and unshrouded ejector rod. To me, it is a top choice when maximum power in the lightest and most compact package is desired.

Next question?
 
Hint for you, Kharma.

Elmer Keith had a MAJOR hand in the creation of the .41 Mag., too.

When was the last time you saw a cop with a .41 Mag? Never? Gee, I think I covered that with my "never really caught on" statement. :)

A number of police forces adopted the .41 Mag, and quite a few officers who could buy their own, did.

Here's another hint for you.

Evan Marshall was a big proponent of the .41 Mag. when it came out and he was a cop in Detroit. He carried it for a number of years.

What can it do that the .44 Mag. can't? As I and others have noted, less recoil, virtually the same power curve, deeper penetration, and flatter trajectory.

Yes, the rounds are similar. But name any other cartridge and we should be able to name another cartridge that's still around that parallels it.

The same could also be asked of the .44 Mag. Why is it sticking around when the .45 Long Colt can dust it?

I mean, who really needs a .40 S&W when the 10mm can be downloaded or uploaded?
 
BTW- Elmer Keith was not a fan of the .41 Magnum. Like you, he saw no reason for it when the .44 already existed. He didn't understand why anyone would want a 210 grain .41 when they could have a 240 grain .44 instead. Others have found uses for the .41 despite Elmer's disdain for the caliber.
 
kahrma,

Do you think that Elmer Keith would have settled for the .41 mag when there was a .44 mag around? I doubt it.

The .44 Mag was already around when the .41 was developed.

SaxonPig,

BTW- Elmer Keith was not a fan of the .41 Magnum. Like you, he saw no reason for it when the .44 already existed.

According to Bill Jordan, it was Keith who was pestering gun and ammo makers at the '63 NRA convention to bring out the .41 Mag. Jordan hoped it would be called the .41 Keith.
 
kahrma,
If you knew the answer, why bother asking.
Your bridge is lonely.
 
"One of its big attractions for handgun hunters is that it has a flatter trajectory than the .44 Mag."

"Some shooters like the .41 because it tends to have a flatter trajectory than the .44 Magnum."

The supposed superior trajectory of the 41 mag over the 44 mag is one of the weakest arguments in all of handgunning. As if the the revolvers were going to be used for 500 yard varminting! For under 100 yard hunting situations that these two magnums are commonly used for I fail to see how a 41's trajectory offers any advantage.

Also, according to the Hornady data I have on hand when launching bullets using the same velocity there is basically no advantage in trajectory:

all loads at 1400fps and 25 yard zero.
41 Mag 210 XTP/HP -0.4" @ 50 yds , -5.6" @ 100 yds
44 Mag 200 XTP/HP -0.4" @ 50 yds , -5.7" @ 100 yds
44 Mag 240 XTP/HP -0.4" @ 50 yds , -5.4" @ 100 yds

Plus the 44 200XTP is downloaded at that velocity - at 1550ps:

44 Mag 200 XTP/HP -0.2" @ 50 yds , -4.2" @ 100 yds
 
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