What is the cleanest BP substitute that also delivers the optimum velocity and power?

R

Rachen

New member
Over a period of many years, I have experimented with many different black powder and substitutes. Here is what I have learned:

Pyrodex: Corrosive factor is unknown because I clean guns and cartridge cases immediately after use. Velocity and power is on par with the best black powder.

Triple Se7en: Very high but sometimes erratic velocity, and also leaves crud in the barrel.

Goex Pinnacle: Wanted to try some, but it has been discontinued. According to reviews, Pinnacle delivers supreme velocity and also leaves virtually no crud, very similar to my own charcoal based sulfurless powder that I make and use.

So guys and gals, excluding Pinnacle and the weak powders like American Pioneer, which is the BEST black powder substitute that is out on the market currently?
 
i use Pyrodex. It has an undeserved reputation for corrosion. I sometimes go two or three days without cleaning.
 
I like black powder, simply because it works, it is a known quantity and there are no surprises. I do use Pyrodex now because i couldn't get black last time. I have a supplier of black now and as soon as the Pyrodex is gone I'll switch back.

Like you, I clean my guns within 24 hrs of shooting so I've never had corrosion.
 
I use 3F 777 in my two Rossi 357 mag rifles and they will shoot all day without crud buildup. I use fairly soft (equivalent to 1:20) lead and my home made BP lube (50/50 beeswax/deer tallow or beeswax/lard or beeswax/olive oil). I've tried Black Canyon, Black Mag 3, APP, CleanShot, ClearShot, Pyro-P and the 777 is the most powerful and leaves no less residue than the first 5 subs mentioned. The Pyro-P left less fouling than BP but more than the other subs.
 
What is the service?

You did not state the service so taking a SWAG at it and addressing your requirements, I'd say BlackHorn-209 and Tripple-7. ...... :confused:


Be Safe !!!
 
Pyrodex is funny stuff; some, like Hawg Haggen, say its reputation for being corrosive is complete hogwash, but others, like myself, have experienced the complete opposite. I won't use it unless I get it very cheap, and then only in shotgun loads. I find it to be EXTREMELY corrosive, even noting rust starting to form before the end of a match before, and this is desert country. I use real black, which, when using the proper lube in a proper manner, doesn't cause undue fouling in the course of a match, cleans up easily, and is virtually corrosion free if cleaned up in a reasonable amount of time. I don't know what your purpose is, but Blackhorn 209 is a duplex powder and, as such, is illegal in Cowboy Action shooting in any category. It's great stuff for hunting, but is rather expensive.
 
Rachen said:
So guys and gals, excluding Pinnacle and the weak powders like American Pioneer, which is the BEST black powder substitute that is out on the market currently?
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American Pioneer may be a slightly weaker powder, but I still like to use it and so do others. A highly compressed load of 35 grains produces plenty of power. Cayugad was loading 30 grains normally and the balls were shooting through a 2" thick spruce plank. Chrony testing with rifles has shown that heavily compressing AAP during loading makes a world of difference in the powder's performance. In another thread, Cayugad mentioned that he was able to fire 60 rounds in his 1858 without any stoppages loading 20 grains of Shockey's 3F which is the virtual twin of APP.
The more opinions that can be heard about a powder the better. A few more grains of APP powder and some extra compression has given instantaneous ignition, a booming report and powerful blast with both my rifle and pistol. There's others who have a similar opinion and use it for hunting too.

Here's a 6 second video of a 35 grain APP load and the ball can be seen impacting the berm behind the target almost instantly at 25 yards:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tBC72iuzrLw

cayugad said:
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I even shoot the same powder as I found clean up was much easier, and I could shoot longer.

My load is 30 grains of APP 3f, a felt wad, then the .451 ball and then I grease the cylinders to avoid the chain fires. I find this a lot of fun to shoot on a nice afternoon. Also the power of that load is surprising as well. That is a two inch spruce plank I was shooting through.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/295484-loading-shooting-1858-remington.html
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cayugad said:
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20 grains is just a pleasant way to spend the day. Recoil is next to nothing, but it seems to have good power.

I was shooting at 25 yards. You can sure tell when I was shooting from a bench rest, VS just point shoulder shooting. BUT it was a blast. I use Slick 50 One Grease on the cylinder pin and the loading arm plunger. I shot 60 rounds and never had to break the revolver down for cleaning.

At the end of the day I took the wooden grips off the revolver and hit it with the garden hose. After a short session with the jet spray, it was almost clean.

I was also shooting a .22 caliber at the target, but the holes are much different. Even though it was 20 grains of powder, I was amazed at the power of the load.

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/black-powder/324129-range-tested-used-58-remington.html
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To each, his own !!!

Pyrodex is funny stuff; some, like Hawg Haggen, say its reputation for being corrosive is complete hogwash, but others, like myself, have experienced the complete opposite.
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Have to agree with you on this one and we need to keep in mind that if has Sulphur, it's corrosive. :barf:
I have many Buckskinner friends that live and die by BP and some by Pyrodex. They are Old School and to a certain degree, so am I. I will not let any of my M/L's go near the stuff, as well as hot/cold water. As they say; to each his own and I will not measure those who use them. .. ;)


Be Safe !!!
 
Tried them all. Blackhorn 209 has been the best for me. Stays clean, you can keep shooting instead of cleaning, and it groups great. I actually haven't found a downside to it other than price. It's expensive but I figure for a couple of hundred shots a year, so what?
 
Good reason to name it BlackHorn-209

Maybe but it takes a 209 primer to set it off.
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Not always true but it is an important consideration. In fact, this holds true when you compare any Sub to BP or Pyrodex. ... ;)



Be Safe !!!
 
Jbar4Ranch said:
but Blackhorn 209 is a duplex powder and, as such, is illegal in Cowboy Action shooting in any category.
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:confused::confused::confused::confused:

I don't get it. Why are they singling out Blackhorn 209 when Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique, TrailBoss, and just about every other smokeless powder commonly used in pistol cartriges is a double based powder consisting of nitrocelluose (guncotton) and nitroglycerine.
I can certainly understand making it illegal in the "black powder" catagories.
 
"Double base" powder isn't the same as "duplex" powder. Duplex loads are a combination of black and smokeless, and black powder with ANY amount of nitrocellulose is deemed to be a duplex powder. NRA sanctioned BPCR matches specifically forbid the use of duplex powders, as does SASS.
From the current SASS shooter's handbook: Propellants containing nitrocellulose are prohibited as blackpowder substitutes.
AND
Any combination of smokeless and blackpowder (so called duplex loads) is specifically prohibited.

Now, this was originally written before Blackhorn was on the market, and was meant to keep reloaders from concocting duplex powder loads and risk being called "One Eyed Lefty" for the rest of their lives. Pressures change radically when blending smokeless and black powders together, but since Blackhorn is a commercial blend put together by folks who know what they're doing, it probably should be specifically excluded from the SASS ruling, but it hasn't. If it ever were, it would probably still be excluded from black powder categories because it doesn't make much smoke and there is a smoke standard that has to be met in SASS black powder categories. This one had to be put in place to keep gamers from loading small charges of black powder with filler so they could "compete" in the black powder classes, but avoid undue recoil and smoke-obscured targets that would slow them down.

From the current SASS shooter's book: It is expected the blackpowder competitor shall contend with smoke obscured targets. To insure this, all shotgun, revolver, and rifle powder charges must produce smoke at least equivalent to a base line load of 15 grains by volume (1 cc) of ffg blackpowder.

People keep looking for ways to get around the rules (aka cheat), and the rulebook just gets longer and longer every year. :(
 
From Blackhorns web site. http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/ignition-guidelines/

We do not recommend any of the 209 primers designated for muzzleloaders (Winchester Triple 7, CCI MZL, Federal Fusion, or Remington Kleanbore). These primers are all weaker than standard shotshell 209 primers and do not provide adequate ignition for Blackhorn 209 – especially when used in a poorly designed breech plug system.
 
Well, after 2 years-- here I go again on this. I was not allowed to sell r/bp because insurance won't let me. Hey, I don't have insurance no more:D I can now carry Goex etc but I have to spend money on a vault/ buy 50 pounds etc. Most people never asked for the real stuff. They like triple 7. And Pioneer. Pyrodex won over Jim Shockey. But a county cop that owns 20 bp guns swears by it. I didn't like it. I would try trip 7 and if that ain't no good then stick w/pyrodex. BUT do I need to carry real bp?? Would people come out of the woodwork to buy it. This is a biz-cost effective decision--help!!!! I sold a LeMat today :D:D

WBH
 
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