What is the ballistic difference between 7.62x54 and 7.62x51(.308)?

S

Steve Smith

New member
What's the ballistic difference? I'm trying to decide which scope to buy for a VEPR .308 and the Russian scopes are for 7.62x54 while the Springfield scopes are for .308 Win. (The BDC's that is) Anyway, does anyone have a ballistics chart on the 7.62x54?
 
Trjectory difference. External ballistics. Okay. I'd guess there's not enough difference to notice. Regardless of brand of scope, or intended-cartridge, it's only "perfect" for one particular load, anyway.

Any change in bullet weight or shape throws everything off from the designed trajectory-curve. Even so, it'll still be closer than a good-eye guess on how much Kentucky windage to use.

FWIW, Art
 
Well, if I go with the SA scope, I know that the scope is built for a 168 gr. bullet at 2550 fps. this I can duplicate. But if I'm using a scope built for a 7.62x54 cartridge at an unknown weight and speed, I can't duplicate that. It seems to me that I should go with an American scope, probabaly the SA. Please continue to respond to this, and I'm not convinced that I just answered my own question. Art, please respond as well.
 
You can only trust pre-set BDC cams so much. You still need to test your rifle/load at all ranges to determine how much it varies from the cams. Additionally, cams are usually 1 MOA or 1/2MOA adjustments. Shooter error will probably count for more discrepancy than BDC errors, but BDC error is there.

If range estimation is REALLY important to you, a mil-dot reticle and 1/4 minute adjustments are far superior to cams. Depends on what you want and are willing to deal with.
 
That is true and one reason that I'm thinking about the mil-dot scopes. Seems more versatile and less cluttered too.

I'm really getting the feeling that for what I want, the Russian scopes are just not going to do it...is that what you guys are thinking?
 
well i like this scope on my vepr:
PSO-2 7 x 29 + r/f and mount $129.00 http://www.weapons-russian.com/access.htm

0925-09.46b.jpg

http://homes.acmecity.com/thematrix/one/40/vepr/index.htm

Its a russian scope calibrated to .308

cool ranging deer width reticle
strong like bull!

dZ
 
That's about the most applicable Russian one I've seen, dZ. What kind of accuracy are you getting at 100 meters? Do you feel that the scope is capable of accurately putting you on target at 600+ meters?

BTW, Dave, I didn't mean to insinuate that I wouldn't test each load to that range, but if I test it and the scope is way off, it doesn't help much.
 
i have only shot mine out to 100 yards and it groups arround 3-4 inches, but my bench was not great...

here is what the retical looks like
retical.jpg


the 1.5 refers to the target width
i gather a russian deer is 1.5 meters wide


i have heard that russian military recticaled scopes are not legal to import.

the scope thinks it can reach .308 out to 1100 meters!


dZ
 
Hmm, now that I see that, there's not much doubt in my mind that better accuracy can be sen with a good American style scope. I can handle having the best of both worlds on my rifle.
 
Doug Bowser's 54R Ammo Tests


------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Hello All,

The test was a success. The weather was mild and not windy. I used the following rifles and ammo combinations. All groups were fired at 100 yards.

M39 rifle with mint bore .310"

military ammuntition

1) Bulgarian brass cased ball marked 10-53, 149 gr bullet, 48 gr flake powder, bullet diameter = .311"
Muzzle velocity: low = 2789 fps high = 2908 fps
Group: 1.5" for 5 shots
2) Chinese brass cased ball marked 71-55, 149 gr bullet, 50 gr extruded powder, bullet diameter = .311"
Muzzle velocity: low = 2908 fps high = 2962 fps
Group: 1.75" for 5 shots
3) Russian yellow tip heavy ball marked 185 5 (55), 182 gr BT bullet, 48 gr extruded powder, bullet diameter = .310"
Muzzle velocity: low = 2634 fps high = 2685 fps
Group: 2.1" for 5 shots
4) Russian soft point marked LVE, 202 gr SP, 46 gr extruded powder, bullet diameter = .311"
Muzzle velocity: low = 2404 fps high = 2432 fps
Group: 2 5/8" for 5 shots
5) East German steel cased marked 21 78, 147 gr bullet, 47 gr extruded powder, bullet diameter = .311"
Muzzle velocity: low = 2744 fps high = 2828 fps
Group: 3.75" for 5 shots
6) Czech brass cased marked 3 0 10, 149 gr bullet, 46 gr flake powder, bullet diameter = .310"
Muzzle velocity: low = 2759 fps high = 2872 fps
Group: 4.5" for 5 shots
7) Egyptian brass cased marked factory 10 1970, 183 gr BT, 44 gr flake powder, bullet diameter = .309"
Muzzle velocity: low = 2510 fps high = 2624 fps
Groups: 12" for 4 shots
8) Finnish VPT 44 ammo all misfired no detonation.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reloads: Lapua Cases RWS Primers ( All Firing At 100 Yards)
1) Hornaday 100 gr hp, .312" pistol bullet, 16 gr 2400 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 1615 fps high = 1767 fps
Group: 4.25" for 5 shots
2) Sierra 150 gr SP, .311" rifle bullet, 42 gr IMR 4895 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2320 fps low = 2441 fps
Group: 4.5"
3) Lapua D46 170 gr step BT FMJ, .309" match bullet, 42 gr IMR 4895 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2382 fps high = 2405 fps
Group: 2.5 for 5 shots
4) Remington 125 gr .310" SP bullet ( 7.62X39 bullet ), 43.5 gr IMR 3031 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2635 fps high = 2766 fps
Group: 3" for 5 shots
5) Lapua D46 170 gr step BT FMJ, .309" match bullet, 40 gr IMR 3031 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2232 fps high = 2320 fps
Group:3" for 5 shots
6) Lapua D46 170 gr step BT, .309" match bullet, 45 gr IMR 4064 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2570 fps high = 2624 fps
Group:2" for 5 shots
7) Sierra 168 gr HPBT, .308" match bullet, 45 gr IMR 4064 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2635 fps high = 2766 fps
Group: 3.5" for 5 shots

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Model 1928/30 Finnish Rifle Bore Diameter .3082"
Reloads: Lapua Cases, RWS Primers ( Firing At 100 Yards )
1) Sierra 168 gr HPBT, .308" match bullet, 45 gr IMR 4064 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2520 fps high = 2568
Group: 2" for 5 shots
2) Lapua D46 170 gr step BT FMJ, .309" match bullet, 45 gr IMR 4064 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2607 fps high = 2651 fps
Group: 2.25" for 5 shots
3) Lapua D46 170 gr atep BT FMJ, .309" match bullet, 40 gr IMR 3031 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2335 fps high = 2364
Group: 1.5" for 5 shots
4) Winchester 150 gr SP, .308" bullet, 43.5 gr IMR 3031 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2629 fps high = 2678 fps
Group: 4" for 5 shots
5) Sierra 168 gr HPBT, .308 match bullet, 42 gr IMR 4895 powder
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2721 fps high = 2742 fps
Group: 2" for 4 shots

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Smith-Corona 1903 A3 As Issued Fired As Illustration Of The 7.62 X 54 Power Level
1) LC 1969 M2 Ball , 152 gr, .308 bullet, standard USGI loading
Muzzle Velocity: low = 2525 fps high = 2641
Group: not fired for grouping

------------------------------------------------------------------------
M1891/30 Tikka PU Sniper Rifle
This rifle is capable of .75" 3 shot groups at 100 yards. The trigger is so stiff that I will change the trigger parts with a set of a M27 Finn I have at the shop.

Note: I fired the velocity check on the 30-06 M2 Ball ammo to show that the 7.62 X 54 is more powerful than most military 30-06 loads.
 
Okay, lemme come at it from another direction: Do you know the load and probable MV of the 7.62X54? You can probably duplicate the MV in your .308 with either a max load (from a reloading manual) or with a slightly lighter bullet.

I strongly suggest getting hold of one of the Sierra loading manuals with the exterior ballistics tables. They give trajectories for all manner of bullets, out to 600 yards.

For instance, in 30-caliber, they will use different MVs for a given bullet weight and give the data. They differentiate between round nose, flat based, and boat tails.

For all this stuff--load, scope, cartridge, etc., to be "just so", you're going to need to develop a load which is tailored to whatever cam-type scope you buy. Without access to a reliable chronograph, you're guessing...

And with a mil-dot scope, you'll also have to test at known ranges, and make notes about which load does what.

Which brings me back to my original idea: I don't think there is notable difference between the two cartridges you mention.

To beat this to death a bit more, out to 300 yards, in trajectories, there's hardly a nickel's worth of difference between a .243, .270, .308 or .30-'06 when zeroed at 200 yards. "Point it and pull." It's hardly over a couple or three inches among them at 400 yards for most loads. Hold two feet above the point you want to hit, and you'll get Bambi in the boiler room.

If your interests are farther out than 400 yards, go back to what I said about load development and testing for your particular rifle.

Hope all this BS helps,

Art
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top