what is it ??? flintless flint lock...

M

Magnum Wheel Man

New member
I bought a little 32 caliber CVA flint lock to play around with off Gun Broker a while back... in the pics, it looked like the flint had broken off, & there was a lot of "crud" on the frizzen...

I bought a couple good flints, & had been busy with other gun stuff, & not played with it yet... my local builder buddy was over to shoot last weekend, & I pulled the rifle out to show him, & get an idea of what parts needed to be changed out...

WHOA... it sparked with no exposed flint... it appears as if there is a broken piece in the cock for a spacer, & a thin strip of hardened steel :confused: in the place of the flint... what ever "crud" is on the frizzen causes it to spark... & even though we did not fire the rifle, the spark shower looks like enough to light the pan...

any eye deer what this stuff is ??? should I keep it like it is ( is this "better" / more reliable than the flint & "normal" frizzen ??? ) how long will the build up that causes the spark last ???

or should I just get a new frizzen :confused:

let see if I can find a pic... this was from the websight before I bought it... the "gunk" appears to have been built up with a weld rod or ???

attachment.php

or should I just buy a new frizzen :confused:
 
I'm wondering if it isn't the stuff that's on the striking strip of my magnesium fire starters ???

to use the fire starter, you shave off some magnesium with a knife, then rub the back of the knife blade down a metal strip on the side of the magnesium block, & what ever that metal is, it showers the shavings in sparks, which then ignite... this looks like it could be the same material :confused:

don't know what it is though ??? but it appears to shower enough sparks to touch off the rifle...
 
Hmm... high tech flint lock ??? Ferrocerium ???

http://www.campingsurvival.com/fefistro.html?gclid=COSIz-7yvpwCFeFM5QodEjTmnQ

since it's main component is iron, you could probably weld with it... I don't know if arc welding or gas welding would work better, but I know a very good welder I think I'll pick up a few rods to play with... however it was applied, seems to shower the pan in more sparks than a regular flint lock...

& in my reading, it looks like if there is more magnesium in the alloy, the sparks are hotter & burn longer ???
 
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robhof

I do believe you have found the answer and I'll bet they got a strip of magnesium and stuck it to the front of the frizzen, I guess it'll last til the magnesium is used up, not period, but I'll bet the spark is hotter and more consistent than real flints. The magnesium would explain the heavy deposit, white to grey would be mag oxide.
 
now I have my local builders interest...

... & I have ordered a couple of the ferro rods... he wants to try modifying the cock rather than the frizzen to use this pyrophoric alloy on one of his flint locks that belonged to his brother, & has always been a "problem child" to fire

the description of the products says it sparks just as good either wet or dry... this may give us something more reliable to hunt with, maybe even more reliable ignition, less hang time ??? regardless of the weather... maybe a much better set up over all ???

just think... all this started from my interest to try something that didn't require primers ( during the "great primer shortage of 2009" ;) ) & I just happened to buy a used rifle sight unseen that someone had expirimented with & gave us the idea... I could see myself with 2 or 3 modified flint locks, in different bores just to play with... maybe hunt with too ( MN has a good muzzleloader deer season I've never taken part of )
 
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flintlock

I have about 8 flintlock rifles and smooth bores and refacing of the frizzen is and has been a common practice for centuries....It looks like its the top jaw of the hammer thats hitting the frizzen face. What ever they put on there is beating up the hammer quit a bit. If it was me...I would replace the frizzen and hammer and get back to shooting. It doesn't take much to get 4 f balck powder to go off anyway. If its raining...the squirrels are in anyway.
Besides, a good cows knee will work great to water proof that lock.

JMHO...TwoMoons
 
robhof

What do you do to reface the frizzen? I had a 50 flinter that I practiced with all summer and got it to work reliably til I took it hunting and pointed it at a nice buck, only to hear pffssst and watch the buck stay there long enough to reprime the tray, then run off. at the end of the day I fired the reprimed gun and had a perfect firing. I still range shoot with my flinters and rabbit hunt with my 45, but I deer hunt with a cap gun.
 
Whatever it is, it looks like it is corroding the heck out of your lock. Or is that just some kind of easily removed build up under the hammer?
 
thats just a beard on the cock ;)... I think it's just cruddy build up, rather than corrosion of the cock steel... but, I still have not had time to disassemble & clean it / inspect it since I got it...

I'll be ordering a new frizzen at the very least, but putting the "ferro rod material" somehow into the cock seems like a better, more replaceable answer... I have 2 sticks of the stuff coming, & my builder wants to make a fixture to hold a piece of it that will fit in a standard cock...

BTW... this is the same stuff used in disposable butane lighters... the fire starter sticks just usually have a higher content of magnesium, so the sparks burn hotter & longer than the regular butane lighter sparks

in essence, it's just modern improved man made flint :D
 
A piece of magnesium in the cock and a buildup of weld on the frizzen is a very interesting idea; such a setup would produce a lot of sparks, given the force of the mainspring. But there are some negative issues: Magnesium is relatively soft, so a hard slam like the cock and frizzen come together with would probably break the magnesium. And worst of all, magnesium itself is flammable so when the pan gets lit by the sparks, the chunk of magnesium which is right down there in the fire could combust which would be dangerous to the shooter's face and eyes. So I wouldn't try it unless the gun is tied to a tree with a string on the trigger, and it's a gun you don't care much about.

Using magnesium in place of flints could have been tried back in the times when flintlocks were how guns were ignited- magnesium was first isolated in 1808 in England. There isn't any history I know of that magnesium was used extensively in firelocks, which probably came about because someone tried it, and the really HOT fire that magnesium burns with melted the lock. Would have been quite a show!

It's not clear that's what you have there, but it looks to me like the sparks might be coming from the steel-to-steel contact between the top jaw of the cock and the buildup on the frizzen. If that IS a piece of magnesium in the jaws of the cock, I don't think it would be a good idea to put any powder in the pan.
 
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I had a 50 flinter that I practiced with all summer and got it to work reliably til I took it hunting and pointed it at a nice buck, only to hear pffssst and watch the buck stay there long enough to reprime the tray, then run off.
Click to expand...

I had that same situation Sunday at a club shoot. Only difference was it was only my second time shooting the gun and I didn't know some of the finer points of flintlock shooting. I had shot it previously without problems.

I had been lucky.

Not to bore anybody here, short answer, I went to the muzzleloading forum and found people who knew the answers, and one in particular who has been very helpful. Now, first time, everytime, that gun fired. I am one happy camper.

As to the (I agree - magnesium fire starter) lock there. I would change the hammer and frizzen out (look at the bottom of the frizzen) and go back to the rock.

On the other hand, just getting a new lock and then changing this one out from time to time to 'show-off' couldn't be all bad. :rolleyes:

The Doc is out now. :cool:
 
looks to me like the sparks might be coming from the steel-to-steel contact between the top jaw of the cock and the buildup on the frizzen.
Click to expand...

it's not easy to see, but there is a thin "shaped" piece of steel under the top jaw of the cock, ( probably has something to do with the little hex nut on the cock ) that must stick out as far as the flint would have... it's kinda shaped like the bill of a base ball cap ( maybe the shape helps funnel the sparks to the pan ??? )

but it is way more a "shower of sparks" than steel on steel could normally produce ???

I wish I would have been able to talk to the person that did this... the seller knew nothing about it...
 
The little hex nut is probably there to keep the threaded screw that holds the top jaw of the cock tightly against the flint from bottoming out on the lower body of the cock. It's probably there because whatever was clamped in the cock was thinner than the usual flint and leather pad.

If what's clamped in the cock is a piece of magnesium, there is a danger if you actually prime the pan and fire it, because the magnesium itself is flammable and might combust. A magnesium fire is VERY HOT!

After thinking about this, and another cup of coffee, I'll bet that the original idea was to use the steel-to-steel contact between the piece of steel in the cock and the buildup of weld on the frizzen. What's clamped in the cock is probably just a spacer, and the top jaw of the cock is bent back so that it isn't a sharp edge contact which wouldn't last more than a few shots. The weld is sacrificial and might be softer than what's in the cock, so it could be replaced when it wears down rather than having to replace the frizzen, which by itself wouldn't last long in such a setup.

I wonder if priming the pan with scrapings of magnesium in place of powder would ignite. The earliest photographer's flash was a small trough of magnesium powder that gives off an intense light when it burns- actually it explodes. They called it "flash powder".
 
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I think some people have misunderstood about the magnesium. That wouldn't be magnesium on the frizzen. You don't strike the magnesium on a magnesium firestarting block. The magnesium is the fuel. You shave some off with your knife onto your tinder. The magnesium burns so hot it will light stuff that's damp. On the side of the magnesium block is a rod that you strike with the back of your knife or other piece of steel to get a spark to ignite the magnesium. The idea proposed above is that whatever is on the frizzen could be the same stuff that is in the rod attached to the magnesium block, not that there is magnesium on the frizzen or anyplace else. You can strike magnesium all day and it won't spark. It's soft like aluminum.
 
correct...

I think it's a piece of steel in the cock, & the fire starter rod on the frizzen...

we want to switch it around, so the fire starter rod ( often called flint ) is put where the flint normally goes, & replace this frizzen with a "normal one"

the new modern man made "flint material" is an alloy that has magnesium in it, but only at a pretty small percentage

the goal would be to rough up as needed ( maybe even "file like" the inside of the frizzen, & use up the flint ( as it would now be the source of the sparks, rather than the steel from the frizzen as the source for the sparks ) as the man made "flint" was consumed, in sparks, it could be easily replaced...

BTW... the "ferro rod" material won't burn unless shaved off
 
That's right, I had it wrong- the magnesium is the fuel, the sparks to light it have to come from someplace else. What I had in mind assumed magnesium would spark if it was struck, and that's not correct. While I always had a magnesium fire starter in my pack, I always managed to slip a Zippo past the Scoutmaster (along with the Camels) and never actually used it to start a fire, and if I did it was 55 years ago and I've forgotten the process. Maybe I should return my Eagle Scout badge.

More coffee sooner is the answer.
 
The covering on your frizzen is made of magnesium, Russ Hamn offered this material back in the 1970's for problem frizzens. He stopped his product offerings in early 1990. Haven't seen an ad for his frizzen liners, locks or other gun parts for 20 plus years.

I have found from time to time Russ's wares at gun shows, would like to find more of his "frizzen shoes" as he called them. Biggest problem now is those that have them don't know what they have. :)
 
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You don't strike the magnesium on a magnesium firestarting block. The magnesium is the fuel. You shave some off with your knife onto your tinder... On the side of the magnesium block is a rod that you strike with the back of your knife or other piece of steel to get a spark to ignite the magnesium.
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Hmm. I have one like that somewhere. But, I also have a magnesium rod that you have to carefully scrape slowly to make the shavings, then scrape faster to make the spark to ignite the shavings (same stick). Maybe the stick is pure magnesium, and the kind you are talking about is some alloy that is more stable.
 
The covering that Russ Hamn offered would throw a shower of sparks good enough that we would use it for starting a camp fire. I heard that a few states even outlawed the use of this material for that reason. Afraid of setting the fields and forest on fire???

It seemed every muzzleloading season for years someone would bring up a subject line about Russ's frizzen material. There was always the pro and con theory of its good and bad sides. The best one was some guy claimed to be a doctor (never knew which end he worked on)? He claimed that this material could make you sick with continued use. I probably "glow" by now and don't know it. :eek: :barf: :confused:
 
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