What is going on?

C

cdoc42

New member
I'm loading .357 mag and I ran into a problem I can't explain.

My RCBS .38/.357 die set comes with a metal ring that is to be placed under the dies to raise them higher when loading .357 Mag - except for the sizing die.

I've gone through my usual routine as I have in the past. Size the case without the ring. Put the ring on and bell the case mouth. Charge the case and seat the bullet with the ring on.

I've loaded 100 rounds and for whatever reason decided to test to see if they fit into the cylinder of my Ruger GP-100. I have NO idea why I decided to test. But I found they do not fit!!! The only new thing I did was make the bell slightly larger and increased the crimp.

I took a NEW case, did not resize it. It fits into the cylinder. I primed it, belled the mouth, charged the case and seated the bullet. It goes 3/4 of the way into the cylinder, that's it! What in the world is expanding the case?

Is it possible the bell is too large and when the seating die engages it, the die pushes the brass toward the last third of the case? I pulled the bullet and powder from the cartridge that won't fit, resized the case without the decap pin, used a smaller bell- virtually just enough to engage the very edge of the base of the bullet, recharged, seated and it fits!!

I have NEVER had a problem with the mouth bell being too large in this .38/.357, nor with .45ACP. .380 Auto, .44 Mag or .454 Casull. Is there any other possibility?
 
How much flare you put on the case mouth has nuttin to do with not fitting the cylinder as long as you are taking that bell out with the crimp. The case would crush/buckle before "the die pushes the brass toward the last third of the case?". I suspect something else. What are you using for bullets? Are they too long or too large in diameter for your chamber? Have you tried adjusting and using your dies without the spacer ring? I never use the ring that came with mine as I always like to adjust the dies for every batch. Have you run you calipers along the loaded case to see if it lies with SAAMI specs?
 
cdoc42,

A couple of explanations are possible. One is that you have been shooting .38 Special lead bullet loads in your .357 Magnum chambers and have lead splatter rings built up in the last 0.135" of the chamber, blocking your cartridges.

Another explanation is that you crimped too hard and bowed the case outward below the crimp, as shown below.

The way to tell which one it is, is to take your caliper and measure all up and down the case and check that the diameter never exceeds 0.379 inches. If not, it's fouling of some kind in the chambers.

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Likely over-crimped as Unclenick pointed out above. It's very easy to do so with the 357.

Generally, the crimped area should be from .001-.003" smaller than the OD of the brass where the bullet is seated. There is no advantage to crimping beyond that range.
 
The problem should be easy enough to figure out if you paint one of the offending cartridges with layout dye (or a black marker) and allow to dry. Try to chamber the cartridge a couple of times with gentle finger pressure then inspect the cartridge for where the layout dye/black marker has been worn off.
 
The over-crimped picture doesn't seem to be the case since I can chamber all but about the last 1/3 of the cartridge.
My cylinder openings measure .380-.381”.
A cartridge that fits measures 0.379 just behind the crimp, then at 4 equi-distant spaces to the base, all are 0.376 and at the base just before the extractor groove, 0.377.
A cartridge that does not fit measures 0.380 behind the crimp, then .0376, 0.376, 0.381 and 0.377 at the extractor groove. Even though it equals the cylinder diameter, of 0.381, I cannot even force it further.
I took 7 cartridges that do not chamber and marked them at the point where they no longer will enter the cylinder. The distance from the base of the case differs in all 7 – ranging from 0.290 to 0.524 inches from the base of the case. The cases are Federal and Midway; the Federal cases do go further into the cylinder before they stick. But what is strange is at the point where they stick, the measurement is not more than 0.376.”
I don't shoot any lead bullets out of the gun .38 Sp or .357. Just Winchester 125gr JHP since the mid-80's. I thoroughly cleaned the cylinder until all patches were clean.
The OAL had been 1.580” until this reloading session. Given another discussion about keeping up to date with changing loads and powders, I checked the recommended OAL and found Lyman suggested 1.590” for a 125gr JHP. My previous crimp had been in the middle or more toward the tip of the bullet at 1.580”OAL. With an OAL of 1.590” the crimp may not even be in the crimp groove which is the reason I increased the crimp.
If I take a new case that will not chamber, remove the bullet and powder and resize it without the decap pin, it will chamber. If I bell the mouth as I had been doing (larger bell) and recharge and crimp the case, it will not chamber. So the bell size, it seems, HAS to play a role.
I bought a collet for my Hornady bullet puller, so I’ll pull them all, resize, make the bell smaller and see what happens. Before I load all 100 again……
 
Well, the problem has been solved. I believe it was a combination of excess mouth bell and excess crimp.

I took a resized, primed and belled case and resized it with the decap pin. It chambered smoothly. I loaded the round but did not crimp it. The original larger bell setting would not allow the round to chamber. I then crimped it and it still would not chamber.

So I reduced the bell in size until the round would seat well and chamber before crimping. With the increase in crimp once again the round would not chamber. So I backed off on the crimp until it did chamber smoothly.

Then I set the seater and the crimper so I could seat and crimp simultaneously and everything is back to the way it used to be.

Now all I have to do is pull all the other 90 or so bullets and redo the whole works. I think I misinterpreted what Unclenick said about the cylinder blockade. I thought it was blocking where the case would no longer enter. I now think he meant it was blocking closer to the front of the case in the cylinder, which makes more sense and explains why my multiple measurements didn't explain it. Well, thanks to all who participated and once again, hopefully, someone else will learn from our discussion as we all enjoy our hobby.
 
I checked the recommended OAL and found Lyman suggested 1.590” for a 125gr JHP.
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I think you need to look at the measurement a little differently. Lyman has listed 1.590 as the maximum over all loaded length forever. (ok, since 1935, anyway :D)

it is NOT a length you need to load to, it is a length you should not exceed. Shorter HURTS NOTHING, and can be the correct length.

My previous crimp had been in the middle or more toward the tip of the bullet at 1.580”OAL. With an OAL of 1.590” the crimp may not even be in the crimp groove which is the reason I increased the crimp.
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your crimp should be in the middle of the bullets crimp groove. As long as doing that gives you an overall loaded length of 1.590" OR LESS, its all good.

Not crimping in the right place gives bulged cases just as effectively as over crimping in the right place. If your crimp is centered in the groove, and the over all loaded length comes out 1.580" It's GOOD. If its comes out 1.570" or some other length, its still good. All depends on the specific bullet's profile (meaning how long it is in front of the crimp groove. The makers know the specs, and make their bullets not to exceed the max length when crimped in the right place.

I am curious, what dies are you using? I don't see how you can get a crimp at all, and not take out the flare...enough to chamber at any rate.
 
Old 454, I have done both over the years -seat, then crimp in a separate sep. But if I can set the dies properly I'd prefer to do it in one step and more often than not, that has worked.

44AMP, you've showed one can always learn something. I've always been under the impression the listed OAL is the one that provides the pressure and velocity listed, and if I load an accurate round near max and seat it too deeply, I'm liable to increase pressure to my disadvantage.

I'm using standard RCBS dies, which gives a roll crimp.

Jumping to another caliber while we're on this subject. I have 215gr "hard cast" bullets for my .44 Mag. which I have never loaded. There is no crimp groove, but the bullets have a beer barrel shape with an indent at the top of the "barrel" as it meets the tip of the bullet, I assume that's where the crimp will be. I also have some 200gr .45 cast bullets that have a crimp groove but no lube groove or lube, and another brand that have a lube groove but no crimp groove. Should I buy a taper crimp .45 die? My .45 Colt dies are Hornady but I'm not sure it has a roll or taper crimp die.
 
cdoc42,

If you look at Hornady, Sierra and Speer manuals, they list individual COL's for every bullet they make. If 1.590" was the COL listed for your particular bullet, then the only thing that would make you miss the cannelure at that length would be if your cases are shorter than standard. You would need to check that. Some pistol cases, like 45 Auto, do shorten a little at each reloading cycle.

It sounds like the flare in your dies is being made at a steeper included angle than your crimp die crimps it to, thereby leaving a little of it unironed. There are two commercially available solutions for this. One is the inexpensive Lee Carbide Factory Crimp die, which would have ironed the bump out with its carbide OD ring. The thing is, though, in order to seat with that die you would have to not have an excessive flare to begin with, and it would have forced you to correct that. The other solution I believe will work for you is the Redding Profile Crimp Die, which starts out its crimp with a taper and finishes with a roll, centering the case for the roll crimp and guaranteeing the outside profile of the finished cartridge near the mouth will fit a standard chamber. At least, it will if your flare isn't at a super steep angle. IMHO, it makes the best revolver crimps, but if you have a really unusual situation, only the Lee die will check your case over its whole length.

Both of those dies have to be used in a separate crimping operation as there is no seating function built into them.

Note, by the way, that if you had covered one of your sticking cartridge cases with ink all over you would have identified the source of the problem faster, as rub marks would have appeared just below the crimp. You were assuming the cartridges were sticking near the mouth of the chamber. If there's one thing I keep relearning about this hobby, it is that assumptions can frequently trip you up.
 
My .357 dies are Lyman All American, the same ones I've been using since the early 70s. Over the years I've learned a few things from screwing around with them.

One of them is, that with MY dies, I can adjust the expander flare a case mouth so much that it will not enter the seating die! (or go back into the sizer!!) So, I know it is possible. And I know that if you go a little too far, it may go into the seater and even crimp without taking out ALL of the expansion, which could prevent proper chambering.

I assume different die brands might also do this, or something similar. My Lyman dies all make a nice roll crimp. I have RCBS for .45 Colt, and while they also "roll crimp" its different, sharper, and sometimes cuts a small ring of brass from the case. Might just be that specific seater die, I don't know, don't have other RCBS pistol dies to compare against. So far, its been a non-issue.

Glad you found and fixed your problem.

A further word about overall loaded length, You will find two kinds of data in the loading manuals. First there is the maximum over all loaded length (with bullet). This is a SAMMI spec, a number chosen as the max length to work in ALL firearms of that chambering. As I said earlier, this is not a "you must load to" length, it is a "you should not exceed" length.

Measure factory ammo. You will NOT find any that exceeds the max length, and if you find any that actually IS the listed max length, I'll be surprised. Factory ammo is invariably at least a few thousandths shorter than the listed max length, to allow it to work through the greatest number of guns.

The other length you will find, in some manuals is the loaded length they got with a specific bullet. It may be the length they recommend, or it may just be the length they got when loaded to the cannelure, etc.

Either way, it's also not a requirement, its a recommendation, and there are circumstances where it might not be the most suitable. For example, if I'm loading for a Contender, I don't need to be concerned about seating to the crimp groove, or the total overall length, provided I am short of the rifling. There are no feed issues or crimp needed issues with that single shot pistol.
If I'm loading for a revolver, then COAL and crimp matter. How much depends on the specifics. The same if I'm loading for a semi auto, though the specific are different ones.
 
If flare and crimp are this critical with your dies in your gun I would advise you to trim your cases to an equal length. Length can vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and lot to lot. Could save you some major headaches.

All the Best,
D. White
 
I think the bottom line is I made the flare too wide and the crimp did, as unclenick stated.leave a bit unironed. I reset the expander to just accept the bullet to the point that it was easily "straight" when I inserted it and the problem was solved. You'd think I would have figured this out after all these years but you know, at times, one gets swallowed up in the maze of confusion such that the path out of the forest is missed.

I had a paragraph above about cast bullets but I think what I was really interested in was this: I just started using cast bullets because I have a bunch from guns shows that I bought years ago because I thought I needed them. Just like my wife and shoes.
One is a 200 gr "hard cast" from All American Ammo and Guns, Arlington, VA and I can't find them on the net. But in order fit in the cylinder I need to seat them PAST the lube groove just short of the largest diameter before meeting the sloping front end. I've shot them without any suggestion of a problem but I am suspicious this is stupid and I should just skip this batch and stick with 250gr Hornady XTP that shot just as well.

Thoughts?
 
One is a 200 gr "hard cast" from All American Ammo and Guns, Arlington, VA and I can't find them on the net. But in order fit in the cylinder I need to seat them PAST the lube groove just short of the largest diameter before meeting the sloping front end
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200gr cast bullets, .45 caliber? .44?? a lot of the 200gr cast .45 bullets are the semi-wadcutter type, made for the .45acp. these will not have a crimp groove, and you aren't expected to crimp them in the grease groove. They are to be taper crimped in semi autos, and when used in revolvers they are seated so the crimp goes over the leading edge of the full diameter section of the bullet.
 
Many years ago Lyman cautioned reloaders about crimping; Lyman claimed crimping can be a bad habit, later Dillion said crimping and seating at the same time can be a bad habit. It was clear to me crimping and seating depth was two different adjustments.

At the same time: I adjust my dies ever time I use them; I am not afraid of loosing my place and I do not secure the lock ring to the diem I secure the die to the press with the lock ring.

F. Guffey
 
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