What increments do you guys use when working up a load for you ML - is 5 grains by volume ok? I've alway shot just 100 grains by volume but thought I'd play around just to see if I can go from good results to really great by varying my charges. Actually I weigh the 100 grains by volume and it comes to 80.0 grains by weight on my powder scale. Then I can make every load exactly the same at 80.0 grains by weight - probably why I already get good results.
What increments when working up a load?
- Thread starter tpcollins
- Start date
It is going to depend on the caliber that you are shooting and what you are shooting. (sabot vs. ball vs. minie, etc...)
Also, measuring by volume is what you do with Pyrodex as opposed to BP. With BP, you measure by the weight.
Again, the question would come up, what size powder are you using? 2FF 3FFF, etc...
The Doc is out now.
Also, measuring by volume is what you do with Pyrodex as opposed to BP. With BP, you measure by the weight.
Again, the question would come up, what size powder are you using? 2FF 3FFF, etc...
The Doc is out now.
Here we go again....
Black powder propellants (whether real black powder or synthetic/substitute black powder) are measured by VOLUME. Period. End of story.
Real black powder measured by volume will be almost the same amount of powder as real black powder measured by weight; eg, 80 grains by volume of black powder is approximately 80 grains by weight of black powder. This is NOT true for the synthetic/substitute black powders.
Having said all that, it is also true that many commercially available volumetric powder measures are NOT PROPERLY CALIBRATED and therefore do not accurately measure powder by volume. I have several different volumetric measures, and the two most extreme disagree by 15%!
So, go measure out several different volume amounts of real black powder with your favorite measure. Then weigh each of those piles and plot the results: grains by weight vs grains by volume. That's called a calibration curve, and it will tell you what the error in your measuring device is. And that's what it is - error in the measuring device, not some strange property of the powder.
If you are getting 80 grains by weight (of real black powder) for 100 grains by volume out of your powder measure, then your measure has a 20% error and should be allowed the decency of an early retirement. In a very deep lake. And you are shooting 80 grains, not 100 grains.
This leads to an answer to the question, "What size increment?" 2 grains by volume, measured by an accurate measure, is about the smallest that you can accurately dispense. This would also produce the smallest increments in POI groups that one can realistically get shooting off a rest. Depending on the shooter's ability, 5 grains might be a better choice. 5 grains is also the largest increment that I'd recommend.
And it doesn't matter whether 2f or 3f, unless you intend to shoot both in the same gun, in which case you need to work up a load for each granulation; the results will be different.
Black powder propellants (whether real black powder or synthetic/substitute black powder) are measured by VOLUME. Period. End of story.
Real black powder measured by volume will be almost the same amount of powder as real black powder measured by weight; eg, 80 grains by volume of black powder is approximately 80 grains by weight of black powder. This is NOT true for the synthetic/substitute black powders.
Having said all that, it is also true that many commercially available volumetric powder measures are NOT PROPERLY CALIBRATED and therefore do not accurately measure powder by volume. I have several different volumetric measures, and the two most extreme disagree by 15%!
So, go measure out several different volume amounts of real black powder with your favorite measure. Then weigh each of those piles and plot the results: grains by weight vs grains by volume. That's called a calibration curve, and it will tell you what the error in your measuring device is. And that's what it is - error in the measuring device, not some strange property of the powder.
If you are getting 80 grains by weight (of real black powder) for 100 grains by volume out of your powder measure, then your measure has a 20% error and should be allowed the decency of an early retirement. In a very deep lake. And you are shooting 80 grains, not 100 grains.
This leads to an answer to the question, "What size increment?" 2 grains by volume, measured by an accurate measure, is about the smallest that you can accurately dispense. This would also produce the smallest increments in POI groups that one can realistically get shooting off a rest. Depending on the shooter's ability, 5 grains might be a better choice. 5 grains is also the largest increment that I'd recommend.
And it doesn't matter whether 2f or 3f, unless you intend to shoot both in the same gun, in which case you need to work up a load for each granulation; the results will be different.
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5gr by volume has always been a good bet for me when working up loads.
I've tried the weighing thing with several of the different substitute powders and never got anywhere near the results I got just by using my volume measure. I think that the size of the particular powder granules causes a lot of the discrepancy with weighing charges - but it tends to not affect volume.
I use the clear plastic measure that Wally World and others sell under a few different names and they have always worked well and the same for me whenever I picked one up.
The main trick with getting consistent volume measures is to pour the powder into the measure the same way every time. Dumping it in fast and pouring slowly WILL give marginally different amounts of powder in the measure. Also after I pour in the powder to the top of the measure, I thump it one time with my finger and then "slice" off any powder remaining above the measure. This thump settles the powder a bit in the measure - but to get consistent results you have to thump it the same every load.
Experience has shown me that consistency is all aspects of loading your charges give the most consistent results on target.
I've tried the weighing thing with several of the different substitute powders and never got anywhere near the results I got just by using my volume measure. I think that the size of the particular powder granules causes a lot of the discrepancy with weighing charges - but it tends to not affect volume.
I use the clear plastic measure that Wally World and others sell under a few different names and they have always worked well and the same for me whenever I picked one up.
The main trick with getting consistent volume measures is to pour the powder into the measure the same way every time. Dumping it in fast and pouring slowly WILL give marginally different amounts of powder in the measure. Also after I pour in the powder to the top of the measure, I thump it one time with my finger and then "slice" off any powder remaining above the measure. This thump settles the powder a bit in the measure - but to get consistent results you have to thump it the same every load.
Experience has shown me that consistency is all aspects of loading your charges give the most consistent results on target.
Smokin_Gun
New member
Your a good man Mykeal ... with patients and perseverance all will be informed I hope.
That measurment by Volume info needs to be promoted for the uninformed.
Smokin_Gun
New member
At 100gr by volume 777 is lighter than 100gr by volume of Black Powder...
777 is already 15% greater than BP or 115gr by volume using 100gr by volume 777 as compared to an equal amount of BP.
Volume is what all BP & substitutes measurements is based on... BP weighs 1gr = 1gr by volume. 777 and other subs do not...so the make it equal in volumetric scales so you can pour a safe amount of synthethic powder to equate real Black Powder loads.
I hope this helps...
777 is already 15% greater than BP or 115gr by volume using 100gr by volume 777 as compared to an equal amount of BP.
Volume is what all BP & substitutes measurements is based on... BP weighs 1gr = 1gr by volume. 777 and other subs do not...so the make it equal in volumetric scales so you can pour a safe amount of synthethic powder to equate real Black Powder loads.
I hope this helps...
No harm at all as long as you always use the same granulation of 777. If you change granulations or brands of powder, using 80 grains by weight will give you a different result. If you use volume you don't have that problem...
EXCEPT
Changing from 777 to any other type or brand of powder involves a 15% by volume increase to get the same pressure.
tp - how many powder measures of 100gr 777 did you weigh on your scale?
I weighed 10 different measures of the old Clean Shot a few years back and all 10 weighed differently - up to a 5gr or so difference between the high and low weight results. I averaged those 10 loads and threw 10 new loads by that average weight. When I shot those loads I was all over the target, literally.................would have needed a yard stick to measure the group.
I will say that Clean Shot was probably not the best powder to try this with because the 2fg grannules are huge and very irregular in size...........but it was what I was using at the time. 777 does have small grannules and may weigh much more consistently, but from my experience in the past I am much more comfortable using my volume measure on-site than I am weighing them ahead of time...................especially when I go to shoot, I usually shoot a LOT so I just grab my measure and a couple bottles of powder and head out. 
BTW, just a note of historical reference.................technically ALL firearms are loaded by volume, even smokeless cartridges. YES cartridge loads are weighed (it's the easiest way to do it - letting the manufacturers do all the calculations on volume to weight ratios), but technically it's the volume of powder versus any unoccupied space in a cartridge that determines the velocity of the bullet exiting the combustion area - it's just that in a muzzleloader, the "cartridge" is the bore of the firearm itself between the bullet and the end of the breech.
I weighed 10 different measures of the old Clean Shot a few years back and all 10 weighed differently - up to a 5gr or so difference between the high and low weight results. I averaged those 10 loads and threw 10 new loads by that average weight. When I shot those loads I was all over the target, literally.................would have needed a yard stick to measure the group.
I will say that Clean Shot was probably not the best powder to try this with because the 2fg grannules are huge and very irregular in size...........but it was what I was using at the time. 777 does have small grannules and may weigh much more consistently, but from my experience in the past I am much more comfortable using my volume measure on-site than I am weighing them ahead of time...................especially when I go to shoot, I usually shoot a LOT so I just grab my measure and a couple bottles of powder and head out. BTW, just a note of historical reference.................technically ALL firearms are loaded by volume, even smokeless cartridges. YES cartridge loads are weighed (it's the easiest way to do it - letting the manufacturers do all the calculations on volume to weight ratios), but technically it's the volume of powder versus any unoccupied space in a cartridge that determines the velocity of the bullet exiting the combustion area - it's just that in a muzzleloader, the "cartridge" is the bore of the firearm itself between the bullet and the end of the breech.
pistols charge measuring
I have a 30 yr old brass volume measure that goes from 0-120gr- had it for my 54 flintlock I made years ago. With a 100 gr of bp substitute being off one of the little increments is not big deal (5%) but on a pistol it is much greater.
Why hasn't anyone made a smaller diameter/shorter one with increments in say 2 gr increments? IF they have I haven't seen one yet-
I have read where some guys use a 38 spcl case which works out to about 22-23 gr- nothing wrong with that at all and I suppose a 357 mag would be closer to 28-30gr but that would have to be figured against a weight volume curve since again we don't have much in the way of items to measure the volume of small 20-30gr charges with?
I have a 30 yr old brass volume measure that goes from 0-120gr- had it for my 54 flintlock I made years ago. With a 100 gr of bp substitute being off one of the little increments is not big deal (5%) but on a pistol it is much greater.
Why hasn't anyone made a smaller diameter/shorter one with increments in say 2 gr increments? IF they have I haven't seen one yet-
I have read where some guys use a 38 spcl case which works out to about 22-23 gr- nothing wrong with that at all and I suppose a 357 mag would be closer to 28-30gr but that would have to be figured against a weight volume curve since again we don't have much in the way of items to measure the volume of small 20-30gr charges with?
I didn't expect this much a$$ chewing on such a simple question. I know BP, synthetic, or whatever powders are measured by volume. But I believe it isn't very accurate to sit at the range with my flask and volume measure and expect to throw identical charges.
I start with my handy-dandy adjustable volume measure - I've only used 100 grains by volume for the past 20 years. Awhile back, I was using either Pyrodex RS or Triple 7 FF and I remember my 100 grain by volume weighed 77.0 grains by weight on my powder scale. So before heading to the range, I would load up 20 or so quick load tubes or 35mm film containers with 77.0 grains of whatever. I could care less whether my volume measure is 5 grains understated or overstated - what matters to me is that every charge I pour down the muzzle is exactly the same. I don't want to sit at the range and pour powder into my measurer and spill powder all over when I swipe the top across the measure.
A few years ago I switched to Triple 7 FFF. It's finer than FF therefore a bit denser, and a 100 grains by volume came in at 80 grains by weight on my powder scale. I even would weigh any leftover loads from the previous season and found they weighed a few tenths less after sitting for a year. I figured the powder may have "dried out" while sitting in my quick load containers - being a bit anal I threw the charge away and started fresh. I pour from a flask and everytime I fill my preloads, I hand tumble the flask (or the 1 pound powder container) to ensure a proper granular mix so the fine grains don't settle at the bottom.
I can't believe I'm doing something wrong here. I'm almost of the opinion I could use the powder charge forever and substitute different bullet weights and types to see what my MK85 likes best - but I'm probably mistakened here as well.
I start with my handy-dandy adjustable volume measure - I've only used 100 grains by volume for the past 20 years. Awhile back, I was using either Pyrodex RS or Triple 7 FF and I remember my 100 grain by volume weighed 77.0 grains by weight on my powder scale. So before heading to the range, I would load up 20 or so quick load tubes or 35mm film containers with 77.0 grains of whatever. I could care less whether my volume measure is 5 grains understated or overstated - what matters to me is that every charge I pour down the muzzle is exactly the same. I don't want to sit at the range and pour powder into my measurer and spill powder all over when I swipe the top across the measure.
A few years ago I switched to Triple 7 FFF. It's finer than FF therefore a bit denser, and a 100 grains by volume came in at 80 grains by weight on my powder scale. I even would weigh any leftover loads from the previous season and found they weighed a few tenths less after sitting for a year. I figured the powder may have "dried out" while sitting in my quick load containers - being a bit anal I threw the charge away and started fresh. I pour from a flask and everytime I fill my preloads, I hand tumble the flask (or the 1 pound powder container) to ensure a proper granular mix so the fine grains don't settle at the bottom.
I can't believe I'm doing something wrong here. I'm almost of the opinion I could use the powder charge forever and substitute different bullet weights and types to see what my MK85 likes best - but I'm probably mistakened here as well.
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tp -
I wouldn't consider the comments a "chewing" - more just concern. I've known others that went the weighing route and were very happy with it, but as you've found out, you do have to be careful with it causes things can change. IF I were to try weighing charges again - I would do it one day at a time..............weigh in advance only the loads anticipated for the next day.
As far as load work ups go, you are better off working up the powder loads for different bullets weights, while bullets of the same weight "typically" will work pretty well with the same powder charge as long as it's the same type of bullet - i.e. Sabots or conicals or powerbelts.
With my Knight I get best results using:
80gr 2fg 777 and 300gr sabots
90gr 3fg 777 and 350gr sabots
100gr 3fg 777 and 400gr sabots
70gr 2fg 777 and .490 patched round ball
90gr 2fg 777 and 460gr No Excuses conical bullet
90gr 2fg 777 and 348gr Powerbelts (lead or aero-tip)
What is interesting about these loads is that they all shoot around 1500fps at the muzzle..................apparently this is where my rifles likes to shoot and I "theorize" that most all muzzleloaders probably have their own sweet-spot as well - a person just has to find that spot and work his/her loads to that level.
I wouldn't consider the comments a "chewing" - more just concern. I've known others that went the weighing route and were very happy with it, but as you've found out, you do have to be careful with it causes things can change. IF I were to try weighing charges again - I would do it one day at a time..............weigh in advance only the loads anticipated for the next day.
As far as load work ups go, you are better off working up the powder loads for different bullets weights, while bullets of the same weight "typically" will work pretty well with the same powder charge as long as it's the same type of bullet - i.e. Sabots or conicals or powerbelts.
With my Knight I get best results using:
80gr 2fg 777 and 300gr sabots
90gr 3fg 777 and 350gr sabots
100gr 3fg 777 and 400gr sabots
70gr 2fg 777 and .490 patched round ball
90gr 2fg 777 and 460gr No Excuses conical bullet
90gr 2fg 777 and 348gr Powerbelts (lead or aero-tip)
What is interesting about these loads is that they all shoot around 1500fps at the muzzle..................apparently this is where my rifles likes to shoot and I "theorize" that most all muzzleloaders probably have their own sweet-spot as well - a person just has to find that spot and work his/her loads to that level.
madcratebuilder
New member
I agree, I have tried 2gr at a time and don't see a change till I jump 4g,r so I just do 5gr to keep the math easy.
Which is exactly the right thing to do.
I don't see where anyone said you were doing anything wrong, nor do I find any ass chewing going on. The only thing I think you're doing wrong is being a bit too sensitive.
Loading by weight is not wrong as long as you don't change brands of propellant. Using the same weight of different brands of propellant is not consistent because, with the exception of 777, they are designed to be equivalent to black powder by volume, not weight.
I understand weighing out charges into preloaders on the bench is intended, and effective at, giving consistent charges from load to load, and I have no criticism of that. However, I believe it's a bit of overkill as the small amount of spillage at the range is, I think, not noticeable with regard to accuracy considering all the other factors that can vary uncontrollably. For instance, do you weigh your projectiles, and are they cast or swaged? But that's just an opinion, not a criticism. I do not suggest you change anything you're doing, especially if it's working for you.
variables
Nice thread. Good advice. I like to prepare my charges ahead of time when I am out with a shotgun hunting. I just do ahead what others do in the field, sorta. I load my Volume measure to the level I want, usually 85 grains of BP - 3 drams). Then I drop that charge into a small container (DGWs sells neat little plastic vials for this purpose.). I put a bunch in my pocket when I start out. I've never weighed them.
Why don't I?
Pete
Nice thread. Good advice. I like to prepare my charges ahead of time when I am out with a shotgun hunting. I just do ahead what others do in the field, sorta. I load my Volume measure to the level I want, usually 85 grains of BP - 3 drams). Then I drop that charge into a small container (DGWs sells neat little plastic vials for this purpose.). I put a bunch in my pocket when I start out. I've never weighed them.
Why don't I?
That's part of the reason. It isn't like loading smokeless cartridges. There are so many variables in addition to the weight of the powder charge. The thickness of the patch, the lube on that patch, the degree of fouling in the barrel, whether or not the load is seated exactly the same way as the last time. And on and on. Life is too short to be weighing out BP loads (unless you really like doing it). It ain't rocket science.
Pete