What happens to the gun?

S

shannon5467

Inactive
I searched online a year ago and found a good deal on a PK380. I ordered it and had it delivered to a local FFL. I went to pick it up and I was denied the tranfer. I apealed the the NICS denial and won. It took 8 months for the appeal process to complete because somewhere along the line the state had tranfered files to computer and had to go back and update to the correct records. Anyway the appeal was granted and 3 days later the FFL sold my gun at a gun show for 350.00 and sent me a check for 282.00 charging me $15.00 for the the NICS background check and 15% for him to sell the gun in which I told him all along That I had full intentions on picking up. I had never been denied or delayed transfers in the past. Over the past 10 years I've bought probably 12 guns with no problem and would have never thought I would have ever been denied otherwise I wouldn't have ordered it to begin with. Did he have the right to sell it? and don't they have to give a guy a chance to proove his innocence?
 
If you communicated the facts clearly to the store owner (appeal, prior history, etc), and payed for the gun up front, he is a crooked piece of garbage for selling it and charging you 15%, since he didn't have anything it to begin with. If the $15 fee for the check (which doesn't cost anything) is standard, you're out that cash. This is the difference between an honest, buyer supportive owner and "make a buck" trash IMO.
 
How much did you pay and when? Based on what you've stated I would say $350 [($350 x .85) - $15 = $282.50] If you paid in full, then the dealer needed to refund all your money before selling it to someone else. If he already had your money, why was he selling your pistol. While the dealer couldn't transfer possession to you until a clean NICS, what was the dealer's damages if you had already paid for it? Nothing of course as it's a rhetorical question.

Not enough money involved to justify the cost of an attorney.

Need all the facts also. Did ya'll have any oral or written agreements?

Regardless, I can't understand why the dealer sold the pistol you paid for before the appeal was decided. After all, you provided the dealer an 8 month interest free $350 loan.
 
Last edited:
At best, the dealer is a scumbag and at worst a criminal. While I'm not a legal expert, the dealer may be guilty of theft for selling an item for which he had already been paid. Also, were you given any sort of information to let you know about these "fees" should your NICS check be denied or delayed (a common enough occurrence for the dealer to have a standing policy about it which should be communicated to customers for whom he orders guns)?

Even if there isn't a legal issue, the dealer is a jerk. The $15 fee for the NICS check is kind of a crappy thing to do anyway, but the 15% fee is really outrageous since he was able to sell the gun (and presumably make a profit) and even if he couldn't, he'd been informed that you had every intention of coming to get it once you had your issues with the ATF straightened out.
 
I had bought it in spring of 2010 from Hinterland for 302 dollars plus somewhere around 25 dollars to ship it to the FFL. I had to pay another 10 dollars for the local police dept to fingerprint me to start the appeal. So all in all, I'm out 55 bucks total and spent 8 months fighting the NICS people who play off everyone as a crimminal. The NICS people also had told me that its takes an average of 116 days to appeal and gave me every excuse why it was taking so much longer....Hunting season, Christmas holidays, Etc. I was in contact with the FFL the entire time and kept informing him I still wanted it everytime he asked me if I wanted him to sell it.
 
There was no interest free loan. The FFL didn't own the gun, he was the middle man doing paperwork, who after 8 months of free storage sold the gun for a small profit. Maybe you weren't a good enough customer to hold the gun any longer.
 
Small Claims Court

Hi Shannon:

I also live in Missouri. I would go to the County courthouse and ask them how to take this dealer to Small Claims Court so that you can recover
your funds. You don't need a lawyer. You would rerpresent yourself
before the judge.

Hope this helps.

Dan
 
I know that this opinion generally isn't too popular, but I only buy local to avoid stuff just like this. Plus, I like to support local merchants as long as they are worth supporting. I have two LGS that are pretty good guys and I do most of my business with them. Sure, I could get it cheaper, but it's still worth it. On the other hand, I buy a little silver now and then and the coin shops in my area really aren't worth supporting as they are very arrogant. I would say he may have been a little miffed that you didn't buy it from him. YMMV.
 
I would say he may have been a little miffed that you didn't buy it from him.
Click to expand...

You say he should buy local for better treatment, and then use this as an example of the kind of treatment that can be expected when said local guy gets irked?

The NICS denial is immaterial, what matters is actual ownership more than anything else.

At the very least, this FFL was unethical. At worst, he stole the gun- if somebody takes your property, sells it to another, and keeps a cut (all without your permission), it's still theft. When you pay for a gun, it's YOURS. If the NICS check doesn't pan out and gets appealed, the gun should be kept until things are resolved. If finally approved, the deal can be finished. If fully denied, then the FFL can hang onto it until final disposition is determined, be it buying from the denied person for later sale, returning to the original seller, or the denied person finds another buyer and has it shipped elsewhere.

But without permission to sell it, the FFL sold what did not belong to him. At the very least, I'd talk to a lawyer. I would probably also consider filing a police report or a small claims suit for the remaining funds.
 
"There was no interest free loan. The FFL didn't own the gun, he was the middle man doing paperwork, who after 8 months of free storage sold the gun for a small profit. Maybe you weren't a good enough customer to hold the gun any longer."

Huh? That makes no sense. How much "storage" space does a small 380 take up? There was no loan, the gun was paid for. The op is in constant contact and the dealer took advantage of his situation, plain and simple. I stand by my earlier description.

I would pursue a small claims hearing, and spread the word about your experience.
 
I think some fee would be appropriate for the storage. After all, he is responsible for it's safe storage. if it went missing under his watch it would be him or his insurance that would have to cover it.

It may not have been through any fault of yours that the NICS denied the transfer, but it certainly wasn't the dealer's problem.

On the other hand, he should have contacted you to come to an agreement first as to the cost of storing the gun, or how to proceed with it. But eight months is a long time. Again not your fault, but certainly not his.

Putting myself in his shoes, I would have been very doubtful that you would be picking up the gun after all of that time. I am not sure whether he had any right to sell it though, as it wasn't his property to begin with, and apparently no demand was made to you with regard to a storage fee.

It doesn't sound like the guy's a crook or anything, and 15 percent is not a very big margin.

Just go shop another one. Gun prices have come down a little, I'm sure you'll do ok. Sorry for the NICS BS, no one should have to endure that for no reason.

My two cents.
 
Avakadava,

Good advice to take the guy to court, but....

The deal about small claims court is that just because you win the ruling, you have no means of coercing the loser to pay up. Essentially the message from the court is that the sued party owes you the money.

If the guy chooses to ignore his obligation in this matter, the only recourse available is to go back to court and get a judgment to attach either the salary or the property of the loser in the original case in order to get your money back. And that one will probably require the services of a lawyer.

Small claims court works well in principle, but not always in practice. Guess how I learned that.
 
After being approved instantly for many years, I started getting delayed. Each one longer and longer. So, I grabbed the bull by the horns and simply went to the county sheriff's office and bought pistol permits. 4 permits for 20 bucks and no phone calls. Of course, after that I got my CCW. Now, only one store refuses to acknowledge these phone call bypasses. Dick's Sporting goods has a policy of 'no matter what, make the call'.
sixgun
 
Need all the facts also. Did ya'll have any oral or written agreements?
Click to expand...
Actually, it would be up to the dealer to prove that Shannon had entered any sort of agreement. The gun is Shannon's property, and if the dealer didn't feel like storing it, he could have told Shannon, who could have sent it back to the original seller.

Without Shannon's consent, the dealer had no right to sell the gun. He could have made an offer before the fact, but it doesn't sound like he did that.

Series70 is correct in that civil courts can only do so much. However, this could become a criminal matter. In some states, it's called "theft by conversion." If it were me, I'd give the dealer one last chance to make full restitution; then I'd get in touch with the police.
 
Amen. Gun owners have enough problems with anti's to have to worry about our own kind. Perhaps the OP and the dealer could find a common ground without the Op being improperly jilted and the dealer possibly getting some really bad press that could affect his business standing.
 
One last question concerning this. He told me that since I bought the gun and was denied that he was actually supposed to turn the gun over to the ATF or the FBI and I would have to forfeit the gun. Does any of that sound right? I don't wanna sue him or get him into trouble because he is my uncle by marriage's brother.
 
He's supposed to "turn the gun over to ATF or FBI", then turns around and flips it at a gun show? Sounds a little hinky to me. One way to know for sure, though; call your local ATF office and pose the same question to an agent, adding all the circumstances, including your favorable outcome, and see what they say.
 
I am an FFL and have never seen any ATF ruling that states I must send to them an untransferred firearm purchased and sent to me by someone else.

And this, contractually, if you made no agreement for storage costs, or a fee to sell it, he can't claim one later, that would have to be stipulated and agreed upon, probably prior to him receiving the firearm.

And, yes you can force someone with a judgement to pay, in PA, you contact the county sherriff, and force a sale of assetts at his home, and or business, to satisfy the judgement.

Now, you may have owed him for the receipt of the firearm, but, I believe he would have had to take you to small claims court to win a judgement, and then, sold off the pistol and sent you the balance for his fees.

But, I don't know if a court would allow him to take a fee to do so, unless he asked for it, at the time of the judgement, he is after all, getting what was legally owed him, how much a judge would ad to that, if any, is not clear, other than something usually awarded, like the filing fee's for the case.

And the other thing, is it worth taking the time, paying the court costs, for less than what 50 bucks?

Lots of courts don't take kindly to wasting a whole bunch of money, for a small judgement, just because you can legally do it.

That may not be right, fair, or legal, but its a reality.
 
Just an opinion but it sounds illegal to my untrained ears...

He sold your gun. Property that YOU paid for. It wasn't his to sell. If he himself willingly faxed in his FFL number to the seller, seems to me the dealer accepted the responsibilty to hold your firearm for you until the NICS went through no matter the time frame. The recipient dealer should have taken into account that you may get turned down. After all, he is in business and deals with this kind of stuff daily. And as far as I understand concerning posession and length of time, as long as there is a clear and agreed to understanding between you and the dealer over the item then he has no right to sell under the 9/10ths rule.

I say avoid the courts due to very little gain if any. Instead, present your case to the ATF. They may find this interesting.

Just an opinion.

Also : The way I read it, the OP did not buy the gun from or through the dealer in question. The dealer in question was just used for the transfer of a paid for firearm to fulfill the regulations.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top