What difference does a .45 with a 3.5 inch barrel have compared with a full size 1911

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vmaam

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I'm still trying to see if buying a Kimber CDP Ultra Carry is worth the weight and concealability vs a full sixed .45.
 
The Kimber barrel is closer to 3" even. I tend to agree that it's the butt, rather than the barrel that dictates a gun's carryability (new word?). Since the butt of the Ultra is the same as Kimber's 4" guns, I'd tend toward the longer tube. The weight difference is probably ony an ounce or two, which you won't notice on your hip, but might make the gun easier to shoot well. I chrono'd twenty 230gr Hydra-Shoks through a 3.5" tube, and they averaged right at 850fps. I've heard as much as 870-890 from a 5", while also reading gunrag reports closer to 850 for the 5".
 
The Kimber you are looking at will be much easier to conceal. It's smaller and lighter than the full size. If you consider the shorter sight radius, slower bullet velocity, and more perceived recoil shooting the Kimber worth the trade off, then get the Kimber. If you plan to shoot several thousands of rounds a year through it I would opt for a steel frame gun. However, if you plan to carry it more than shoot it the alloy frame Kimber will be fine. Again, there are tradeoffs. What to get depends upon what you plan to do with it.
 
Given the same grip size, I'd go for the longer (Commander length) slide every time. That's partly because I don't think there's a significant difference in the weight/concealability between the two and partly because I shoot the Commander-sized guns much better. However, the concealability thing is very dependent on body build and preferred dress. Your mileage may very well vary.

My usual carry gun is a Les Baer lightweight (aluminum frame) Commander (Concept IX) while my (main) IDPA gun is the Les Baer Concept VII (steel frame). This way I shoot the heck out of the latter without worrying about wearing out the lightweight frame.
 
For years I used a Combat Commander (this was long before any of the "compact" guns had become available). The only reason for going to the Commander was that the way I wore the gun then caused problems when sitting in a car seat with the full sized 1911A1. The Commander worked. As I aged, and my body changed shape, I began to have serious problems with the butt of the Commander protruding too much and printing. I got a very good deal on a Kimber Ultra CDP and bought it. After using it I can say that it is just as accurate as the Commander, it KICKS a LOT more than the Commander with 230 grain bullets, and the butt works very well for concealment. I actually would have prefered the Compact CDP but couldn't get a deal on it. I find the longer barrel actually conceals better than the short one (stays in the pants better). The difference in weight is not a big factor in my case, but I can say that you do know it is lighter, especially by the end of the day. The "melt job" that Kimber does on the CDP guns is another story. I noticed that the very first day I wore the gun. It really does make for more comfortable carry. I hadn't realized how many sharp edges my old Commander had until I carried the CDP once.
 
Consider this...

Your life may depend on what you're carrying.If you get into an ugly situation,the thing to do is put as much distance as you can between yourself and your attacker.

The little ultra-compact guns are great for concealability,and adequate for a situation that involves 20 feet or less in distance.Much more than that,and you can't hit much.A full-sized pistol allows you to run around and shoot accurately at 50 feet or more.

I know what your saying: "Hell,I'm not gonna run,I'm gonna shoot." Consider this: an attacker 20 feet away can get to you in about 1.5 seconds.Can you get out your gun and shoot him within that time?

Just something to think about.
 
That 21 feet rule is BS. Too many folks have watched that hack film SURVIVING EDGED WEAPONS...
We tested this and with a simple draw stroke "Popped" the attacker at the 1/2 way mark.
That film where this urban legand comes from is about the worst thing a trainer could do to a student.
 
My Kimber ultra elite is every bit as accurate as my full size. The only advantage the full size has on the ultra carry is less muzzle flip and maybe a little easier to aim due to a little better sight picture for my old eyes. The ultra carry is quicker into action on the first shot imo. 4" vs 3" is a matter of preference. In the compact form, both are easy to hide with the reduced butt length. Since I use the same holster for all my 1911's, they all feel prety much the same in their ltwt. version. Yes, there is a slight reduction in muzzle velocity out of the shorter tube, but with the current state of outstanding defense ammo available, this is no real problem.
 
JMB,

You mean I have to quit practicing with my Kimber Ultra CDP at 25 yards. Shoot, that's the only range I've ever shot it at.
 
George, I don't agree that the 21 ft 'rule' (the Tueller drill) is completely urban legend. It may be overplayed a bit by gunwriters, but many folk will have a hard time drawing and hitting a charging, knife-wielding opponent from that distance - especially if you are not expecting the charge and you're not savvy enough to move backwards and off the line of attack.

Jim Crews does a very good simulation of this in his handgun classes using a charging (and bobbing/weaving) target system. It is amazing to watch good shooters fail to achieve solid COM hits before the target is in your face.
 
I own a stainless Colt Officers Model. I think it is approximently what you are talking about with the Kimber. I put about 100 rounds through it today. 25 yards is no problem. I own three 1911s including the officers model. I can shoot the officers model better than one of the full sized and not as good as the other one. I don't think the small size is of any consequence as far as shootablity. I also don't think recoil is much of an issue either; we are talking a .45 ACP here not a .454 Casull. All that being said, I think that the Commander or it's other brand equivilent would be just as easy to conceal, possibly give you a slight velocity increase and give you a slight increase in the sight radius. These small 1911s really pull my chain. With the Chip McCormick mags you even get the same ammo capacity as a standard mag in a full size.
 
Yeah - but a person that is charging you is not bobbing and weaving very much - they are in fact sprinting as fast as possible at you. And I have personally done thes kinds of tests using Simunition and real world police holsters and real police style guns.
The conclusion was that it is an extremely stupid idea to charge a police officer... Even if said officer was armed with only an Asp Baton.
 
Since we're talking little 1911 concealability I would also recommend some of the slim grips out there (AFS Slimtech or Chip Mccormick). They do WONDERS for the grip, they stop it levering away from the body.

Also, it can make the gun easier to hold - ymmv.


Battler.
 
Another difference the shorter barrel makes other than its ability to be hidden easier - is its ability to lose velocity. Your talking about 2 inches shorter than a Government Model. The Rule of Thumb is 50 FPS lose for every inch... Sometimes thats not true - some times it is. Call that Average. When a company says it's .45 load does XYZ for speed - they usually tested it in a GM. So take 100 FPS off that number. If you have a Chrony - Sweet. Many shooters dont - so they have to be more careful. If you have a load thats only doing 800 FPS to begin with, you drop that down to only 700 and your looking at a bullet that will probably no longer expand as advertised, or penetrate as expected.
My opinion is that in the smaller guns you want to use the lighter/faster loads. I have been very happy with 185 load from Cor Bon, Triton, and the heavy duty hunting loads from Hornady... They are fast to start with and stay fast in the Compacts.
My little Detonics handles them just fine and they are most energetic to shoot... they bark, but remain controlable.
 
Federal 230 HS in gelatin:

5 inch 12.8/.80
3.5 inch 13.8/.68

For comparison:

40S&W
Fed 180 HS:

5 inch 12/.71
3.5 inch 13/.67

9mm
Rem 124 GS:

5 inch 11.2/.68
3.5 inch 13.7/.65
 
George:

Not everyone here is a police officer and many of us are using concealment rigs that are pretty slow to draw from. Plus there's the decision time to deal with. When you are doing the test, the defender has already made up his mind to draw and fire. But in the real world, you have to recognize the situation, make your decision, and then act.

A local club did some IDPA-like matches last year, except there were several differences. There was no timer, and no score. The targets were movable and were controlled by the safety officers (a crude rig of fishing line and surgical tubing...). The targets were dressed up in old clothes. The safety officers behind you spoke the parts of the targets. They also had starter pistols. So you interacted with the targets in this "match." The goal was simply to survive to see the next day. Having the safety officers screaming in your ears and the starter pistols going off really added to the stress level...

Another safety officer videotaped the whole thing, so you got to see the mistakes that you made. One of the thing that I noticed was that universally the time to draw was very slow. What seemed quick when I was in the match was agonizingly slow on the video. Most of that time seemed to be the time taken up by the decision.

M1911
 
Broken - the reason those shorter barreled gun shot deeper was because they did not expand - or they expanded slowly and opened late.

M1911 - I haven't worn a badge in a long time... and when I did I was no super hero. The test subject made it 1/2 way before I fired... and using an unnamed italian open slided auto, by the time they got 2/3 the way, the subject caught about half dozen sims center mass. You increase your odds greatly if you slide step back and angle out in a modified shuffle pivot move... The key is to remain calm, draw and fire smoothly and regularly... Panic can make you fumble.
 
I think M1911 better articulated the point I was trying to make. Both in classes (non-LE) and in IDPA matches I have seen shooters try to cope with a target closing on them rapidly. Using the original (non-bobbing and weaving) Crews charger which is pulled by someone behind the shooter, many shooters fail to get many telling shots off before the BG is upon them - at least without some rearward movement on their part.

The point here is not that it can or can't be done, but that many shooters are surprised at just how fast that distance can be covered and how little time there may be to react. In the real world of course, as M1911 alludes to, the decision time not only includes "has the BG started moving towards me?" (usually the signal to draw on the training range) but also "is this guy really attacking me and am I justified in shooting him?"
 
A Differesnt Reason

I used to carry a full-sized Gold Cup in an inside the pants Ted Blocker LFI holster. Many times when sitting down or scooching around in the car, the holster would occasionally pinch a fold of skin against the seat. It looked like I got bit in the ass by a goose (but only in the shower), but it still hurt.

I switched over to the Combat Commander, bought the Ted Blocker holster for it, and the butt biting stopped. The Commander being just 3/4 inch shorter was so much more comfortable. -Brian
 
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