What Caliber for Winchester 1895, "30 U.S."?

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echo7tango

New member
My friend just got this rifle and wants to shoot it. He called Winchester, gave them the model and serial number, and they told him it was .30-06. He was talking with their supposed historical expert. So he bought some .30-06, but it doesn't fit, the rounds do not feed.

On the rifle is stamped "30 U.S." at the base of the barrel (as opposed to the muzzle end) but on the top of it. Its serial number was somewhere in the 5,000s, I'm pretty sure. It was definitely lower than 6,000 - if that info is useful.

Someone else looked at it and thought it was .30-30, but nobody had some to see if it would fit.

So, what is its caliber? Do we buy some .30-30, and if it fits do we fire it? Sounds a little like Russian Roulette to me. I'd rather be certain before we try to fire it.
 
30 US is 30-40 Krag.
Yep. And a military carbine 1895 Winchester would be the kind Teddy Roosevelt used in Cuba! * * * He had a bunch of his officers use them to.
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Yep, and most of them were killed by Spanish 7mm Mausers.

That said, it is an historic U.S. mil cartridge.
 
.30-40 Krag.

I can understand the error. Both .30-40 Krag and .30-06 have carried the ".30 U.S." designation.
A Winchester historian, however, should have known that .30-40 Krag was much more likely, for many reasons -- not the least of them being that the tenure of .30-03/.30-06 as ".30 U.S." was very short, and that an 1895 Winchester in .30-06 should be marked as ".30 Gov't" or ".30 Gov't-06".
 
Stop by Cabelas, Bass pro, Scheels or other places that actually sell a lot of guns and ammo and pick up several boxes. It can be hard to find at times but it's a pretty good load for when it was invented. 30-06 would be cheaper to shoot but if you reload save your brass and reload it. If not save it anyway and offer it for sale here.
 
I agree with FrankenMauser. I can't believe that the Winchester Historian did not know that .30 U.S. was the .30-40 Krag cartridge!! Especially when given the serial number range - the .30-06 cartridge (or .30-03 for that matter) wasn't even invented yet when this gun was manufactured.

Also, if your friend wants to shoot it, have him buy a modern replica (you can get them in .30-40 Krag to boot) and shoot it all he wants. Shelve the antique. Below 5000 serial number could be a borderline museum piece.

Does your friend have any pictures of this carbine that you could share? 1895 Winchesters under serial number 19871 were made prior to December 31, 1898. This is why it could not possibly ever be a .30-06. Serial numbers ranging under 6000 is probably the first year of production!

Is it U.S. government marked? I really would not shoot this gun much. Take it out put a couple of rounds through it and clean it up. If its government marked - depending on condition this piece could appraise very highly. A 60% government marked 1895 carbine could be valued close to $6,000. Why risk busting a firing pin, or some catastrophic failure firing it too much?

My .02 federal reserve notes.
 
orsogato - I wanted to go there, as well. But I'm not up to speed on 1895 serial numbers. And my own knowledge of serial number histories for other manufacturers of the time period includes a lot of asterisks (*) for serial number blocks that were used out of sequence.



For example, I have a Remington with a serial number in the 56,000 range (serial block later used for war time production of a U.S. government contract). But distinguishing features and date codes on the rifle actually make it one of the first 12,000 built, less than a year after going into production.
And, jumping a bit more toward modern times, I have a Ruger with a serial number that dates the receiver to 1978, but Ruger didn't ship it as a complete rifle until 1986.
 
In an original 1895 Winchester,
30 US or 30 Army = 30-40 Krag
30 Government = 30-'03
30 Govt 1906 = 30-06
The distinction is that the 30-'03 was the first "all-services" cartridge, hence the "Government" designation.
 
The Model 95 Winchester was chambered for the 405 Win. 30-40, 7.62X54R, and the 30-03.

The 30-03 round was the first '06 type round, but was designed for the 220 gr bullet used in the 30-40 Krag Round. It had a slightly longer neck, and as said was also called the 30 US.

IN 1906 the bullet was changed to 150 gr. Hence the 30-06.

I had an original M1995, which was chambered for 30-03. Latter I got a Browning Made M1995 that was chambered for the 30-06.b

They were good rifles but one had to be careful reloading. The brass had to be re-sized properly as they stretched a lot upon firing.

Leading up too, and during WWI the Russians were short of rifles. They contracted with Winchester for Model '95s in 7.62X54R but the Revolution came about and the Reds refused to honor the contract so they were sold to US Citizens.

Interesting story I read a long time ago was about an individual who bought two un-opened cases of the Model 95s. One case he opened and sold off the contents, keeping a couple for himself.

The second case he cut open the top and removed the oil paper covering, exposing the rifles. Put heavy glass on top, making a coffee table.

Wish I kept the article, it had some great pictures of the coffee table.
 
Boy, it sure sounds like this rifle is a good piece of American history, Teddy Roosevelt in Cuba and all that (thanks, Deaf). It was given by a very close friend of his before cancer took him too early in 2013 or thereabouts. I know my buddy wants to shoot it at least once, and he keeps it in a nice display case mounted on his office wall. I don't think he plans to shoot it often. But if he does, I'll pass the word and suggestion, orsogato, to buy a modern .30-40 Krag.

In an original 1895 Winchester,
30 US or 30 Army = 30-40 Krag
30 Government = 30-'03
30 Govt 1906 = 30-06
The distinction is that the 30-'03 was the first "all-services" cartridge, hence the "Government" designation.
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Great info, Scorch, thanks.

A question about cleaning a valuable museum piece like this, I simply use CLP on my modern guns. I imagine CLP should be fine for this 1895 Winchester, right? Or does the older metal need a different protectant?

Thanks, people, for all the good info. You guys rock. I'm glad I asked here about this.

echo7tango, retired USMC Field Artillery FDC - so, I can aim the bigger guns, too. :)
 
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If my buddy wants to buy a new rifle in .30-40 Krag, what are some good ones to recommend? Links appreciated. A lever action one would be cool, those are fun to shoot and they "feel" more historical.
 
"...He called Winchester..." Winchester is just an Olin Corporation brand name licences to Fabrique Nationale d'Herstal these days.
"...buy a new rifle in .30-40 Krag..." Don't believe he'll find a new rifle chambered in .30-40 unless he has one cu$tom made. No demand and nobody regularly loads the ammo either.
Both Winchester and Remington only load it "seasonally". (No mention, by anybody, when that 'season' is either.) There's no brass either. Buffalo Arms is taking back orders though. Ammo runs $35 to $40 per 20, but isn't readily available anywhere. Certainly not Cabela's, etc.
"...Model 95 Winchester was chambered for..." According to the Winchester Collector site, The thing was chambered in a slew of cartridges. .30-40 Krag (also known as “30 Army” and “30 U.S. ”), .38-72 W.C.F., .40-72 W.C.F., .303 British, .35 W.C.F., .405 W.C.F., 7.62x 54R Russian, .30-03 (Springfield) and .30-06 (Springfield).
http://winchestercollector.org/models/model-1895/
 
In Wisconsin, Minnesota, and Michigan I have bought 30-40 off the shelf at Cabelas and Scheels. And Usually see 10 boxes at each store.

Buying loaded ammo is really the only way to get brass. I wish PPU sold it but maybe not as much demand. There is also a way to convert 303 british to fit but it will have a short neck.
 
Both Winchester and Remington only load it "seasonally". (No mention, by anybody, when that 'season' is either.)
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It can be any time they have a hole in the production schedule. But, generally, the run is made in July or August (showing up in retailer stock a little later), under normal circumstances, and only if they have enough orders to justify the effort.

Back in 2009/2010, the magic number was around 150k-175k pieces of brass on order, with the requirement that something like 75% (or more) be for loaded ammunition.

From what I've seen, Winchester only runs it about every 3-4 years. For Remington, it is usually every year or every other year.

But under current market conditions, I wouldn't count on seeing new .30-40 ammo for a while, and the minimum order is likely to be notably higher (I'd expect 250k+ pieces).
 
As far as modern reproductions go, both Winchester and Browning have made 1895 reproductions in .30-40 Krag. I admit, if I were buying an 1895 reproduction, I'd probably get it in .30-06, but they are out there in .30-40 Krag. Those repros can also be had in .270 Winchester and .405 Winchester.

The gun manufacturers obviously don't have a clue, because I can't imagine why anybody would want to buy an 1895 reproduction in .270 Winchester - a cartridge slightly out of the time frame for the gun and never originally chambered in them. They SHOULD make the repros in 7.62x54 Russian. With all of the ammo available out there in that caliber, and if I'm not mistaken more 1895s were manufactured in 7.62x54R and sold to Russia than any other caliber chambered for it.
 
"Yep. And a military carbine 1895 Winchester would be the kind Teddy Roosevelt used in Cuba! Talk about history. He had a bunch of his officers use them to."

No, he apparently didn't.

Roosevelt presented a number of the officers with Winchester 1895s to commemorate their service together in Cuba, but he never armed his unit with the Model 1895 wholesale, and as far as can be determined from what I've seen, no one in the unit ever used a Model 1895 in combat.

Roosevelt did, however, use his influence as former Assistant Secretary of the Navy to have his unit issued Krag rifles. The Rough Riders were the only volunteer unit (as opposed to regular army) to be issued Krags. All others were issued Trapdoor Springfields.

The Army placed an order for 10,000 M1895s, but none were delivered in time for use in the Spanish-American War.

Some were apparently later issued to Filipino Constabulary troops during the US occupation with the bulk of the unaccepted order being sold on the civilian market.
 
"The Model 95 Winchester was chambered for the 405 Win. 30-40, 7.62X54R, and the 30-03."

The 1895 was chambered for more cartridges than those.

.303 British, .35 WCF, .38-72 and .40-72 were also standard chamberings. Supposedly there were a VERY few made in 6mm Lee Navy.

The most produced was, of course, the 7.62x54R for the Russian government. I've read that the .303 British was the second most common chambering, but I don't know for sure.

The .30-40 was, by far, the most popular domestic chambering.
 
The only rifle I can thing of that MIGHT be currently chambered for .30-40 Krag is the Ruger single shot No. 3.

If anyone has a Model 1895 in .30-03, you've probably experienced issues finding brass.

Using .30-06 brass in the .30-03 chamber is possible, but it normally results in spotty accuracy.

Simple solution...

Fireform either .270 Winchester or .280 Remington cases in the chamber. Both cases are 2.54" long, using the longer neck design of the .30-03, but with the shoulder and all other dimensions being the same as the .30-03.
 
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