Just doing a bit of reading on the rifle choices of sovereignty patrols such as the Canadian Rangers and the Greenland's Sirius Patrol. They are using primarily bolt action Enfields. They just seem to be a bit outdated to modern bolt or semi autos. Is this choice an issue of tradition, budget, or really there isn't a modern rifle (whether bolt or semi) that can function reliably in the harshest of cold climates?
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What are the most reliable rifles in the cold (like really cold)
- Thread starter TxFlyFish
- Start date
The Rangers use Lee-Enfields because that's what they're issued. The Lee-Enfield is also extremely reliable. Budgets are everything in the CF. The CF is currently looking for a replacement as parts etc. for No. 4 Rifles are getting scarce since a previous socialist, rat, offspring of unmarried parents, government opted to destroy 'em all. Very likely is not a high priority thing though.
Mind you, the C1A1 was 100% reliable too. If it was used correctly. That'd be no lube whatsoever in extreme cold. The SOB was far to heavy for a guy to lug around hunting though.
Greenland's Sirius Patrol is way different from our Rangers. The Rangers are natives. The Sirius guys are Regular Danish Navy SF types. They use a Pattern 17 .30-06, not a Lee-Enfield. Still a reliability thing, but also to deter polar bears.
Mind you, the C1A1 was 100% reliable too. If it was used correctly. That'd be no lube whatsoever in extreme cold. The SOB was far to heavy for a guy to lug around hunting though.
Greenland's Sirius Patrol is way different from our Rangers. The Rangers are natives. The Sirius guys are Regular Danish Navy SF types. They use a Pattern 17 .30-06, not a Lee-Enfield. Still a reliability thing, but also to deter polar bears.
There's a reverse correlation between sophistication & performance in adverse conditions.
The old Lee Enfield is, by modern standards, a clunker. But it excels in harsh conditions partly because its so darn simple. Take the trigger for example, its minimalist, a "V" spring a "V" shaped sear, a trigger & the cocking piece, that's it. However when it comes to mud, debris snow & so on its the perfect mechanism simply because it is massive, simple & designed as such. You could seriously do much worse than a good No4 or No5 Enfield for a bad weather rifle. I take mine to the range & the woods when my more sophisticated friends are leaving the modern rifles at home.
The old Lee Enfield is, by modern standards, a clunker. But it excels in harsh conditions partly because its so darn simple. Take the trigger for example, its minimalist, a "V" spring a "V" shaped sear, a trigger & the cocking piece, that's it. However when it comes to mud, debris snow & so on its the perfect mechanism simply because it is massive, simple & designed as such. You could seriously do much worse than a good No4 or No5 Enfield for a bad weather rifle. I take mine to the range & the woods when my more sophisticated friends are leaving the modern rifles at home.
There's a reverse correlation between sophistication & performance in adverse conditions.
+1.
Simple is good when conditions are difficult.
Cock on Closing Mausers are mighty simple..... and robust.
Gunplummer
New member
What people call "Bubba'd guns" are the best. Many a (Real) hunter has kept a chopped military gun around to use even when they could afford a better looking gun. I remember when there was great paranoia about frozen firing pins. I was hunting in a heavy snowstorm one day and my new Marlin lever action 45/70 froze shut by the end of the day. I had to lay it right under the heater in the truck to try and thaw it out to open it before I went home. It took quite a while using a heater back then. I have never had that happen with a surplus gun.
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
If you know you are going to hunt in super-cold conditions, make sure the bolt and the trigger group are right at near-dry. No grease and almost no oil beyond a thin film. Powdered graphite, maybe...
FrankenMauser
New member
The simpler, the better.
Stainless steel, although nice to have, should be avoided. The expansion/shrinkage rates for stainless steel are higher than carbon and chromoly steels. As such, tolerances will change more, and not for the better.
Stainless steel, although nice to have, should be avoided. The expansion/shrinkage rates for stainless steel are higher than carbon and chromoly steels. As such, tolerances will change more, and not for the better.
mapsjanhere
New member
Different priorities. If you're a hunter who can choose his time to hunt you choose the equipment for low maintenance. You go stainless, because you're worried that the rifle might be rusted shut from a couple of months in the wrong place. If you're a professional who has to be out every day you go for reliability, and you're being paid for the time to do daily maintenance to prevent failure due to rust.
I just got back from elk hunting, highs were in the teens and lows were around zero while we were hunting. I have hunted as cold as -38 and several times in the range of -20 to 10. When the range at 8,000 feet has a prediction of temps below zero without a snowstorm, I often try to get to the range for some cold weather testing. I run action tests, oil test and velocity tests. Some of the data is very interesting.
A "dry" bolt action most certainly can bind especially if it gets any moisture...in and out of a truck or abode with the resultant condensation. I have tested both FrogLube and FireClean, both failed miserably in the cold. Full synthetic ATF applied sparingly to the bolt lugs and contact points is what I typically use. I am trying out a new actual gun oil now that, so far, has proven to excel in every area.
I run piston and DI ARs and the DI guns do run better in extreme cold...at least the ones I tested. I do run a NiB coated BCG in my ARs that are to be used in extreme conditions and they have done well. I ran a 100 round test with cool periods last year at -12 to -8 on a normal 16" DI gun with ATF on the trigger and a dry NiB BCG...ran like a champ. That gun now has close to 3K on it, no maintenance at all since that first test.
A "dry" bolt action most certainly can bind especially if it gets any moisture...in and out of a truck or abode with the resultant condensation. I have tested both FrogLube and FireClean, both failed miserably in the cold. Full synthetic ATF applied sparingly to the bolt lugs and contact points is what I typically use. I am trying out a new actual gun oil now that, so far, has proven to excel in every area.
I run piston and DI ARs and the DI guns do run better in extreme cold...at least the ones I tested. I do run a NiB coated BCG in my ARs that are to be used in extreme conditions and they have done well. I ran a 100 round test with cool periods last year at -12 to -8 on a normal 16" DI gun with ATF on the trigger and a dry NiB BCG...ran like a champ. That gun now has close to 3K on it, no maintenance at all since that first test.
Peter M. Eick
New member
One comment. Having worked in Northern Russia/Siberia, I would comment there is a world of difference in what is considered cold. -40C is where I would call the break point where things get odd. My experience is that up to about -40C things behave as you would expect. Steel is sold and strong and does not shatter or break easily. When you get the really cold days like -65C. Steel gets very brittle at these temps and you have to avoid impacts for some steels will shatter like glass.
We broke (shattered) several gears and chains on our dozers when we had a stretch of really cold days where we bottomed out around -68C which was the generally accepted actual temp. The camps weather station said -72C but we agreed that was probably over stating things a bit. I know it got so cold that my rubber sorel boots, the rubber actually shattered on flecked off it. It did not matter that much since the rubber was needed for the wet and nothing stayed wet that was not in contact with direct flame at those temps.
My point is be careful of sharp impact loads on some steel alloys as you get colder. Things behaved a lot differently than I would have expected prior to working there. A bit of caution is warranted.
We broke (shattered) several gears and chains on our dozers when we had a stretch of really cold days where we bottomed out around -68C which was the generally accepted actual temp. The camps weather station said -72C but we agreed that was probably over stating things a bit. I know it got so cold that my rubber sorel boots, the rubber actually shattered on flecked off it. It did not matter that much since the rubber was needed for the wet and nothing stayed wet that was not in contact with direct flame at those temps.
My point is be careful of sharp impact loads on some steel alloys as you get colder. Things behaved a lot differently than I would have expected prior to working there. A bit of caution is warranted.
A couple of good points there. I never take the rifle indoors, even more not into a tent in sub freezing weather. Its better off consistently cold & dry than swapping between in & out.
Also the extreme cold comments. I've done some sales to those working in the Arctic/Antarctic & when it gets really deep freezing cold materials behave very differently. In many cases well cured wood has actually out preformed metal for breakage!
Also the extreme cold comments. I've done some sales to those working in the Arctic/Antarctic & when it gets really deep freezing cold materials behave very differently. In many cases well cured wood has actually out preformed metal for breakage!
Don't underestimate the M1 Garand in cold weather.
I use to run sniper schools using the M1C/Ds. In the schools I had students from 3 AK Native BNs.
Alaska natives don't make a lot of cash money and we were lax with ammo accountability so guard ammo (and sometimes guns) were often used by these guys in their substance hunting.
I've been with these guys on hunting trips in some pretty extreme conditions, 40-60 below and colder, with harsh winds and blowing snow. I've never seen the Garand fail.
Of course I did include "using dry rifles" in cold weather in my classes.
I use to run sniper schools using the M1C/Ds. In the schools I had students from 3 AK Native BNs.
Alaska natives don't make a lot of cash money and we were lax with ammo accountability so guard ammo (and sometimes guns) were often used by these guys in their substance hunting.
I've been with these guys on hunting trips in some pretty extreme conditions, 40-60 below and colder, with harsh winds and blowing snow. I've never seen the Garand fail.
Of course I did include "using dry rifles" in cold weather in my classes.
The ductile-to-brittle transition temperature (DBTT) of metals is pretty well understood by materials engineers. Mild Carbon steel is about -20F and AR500 is around -50F. There are some alloys of the various parent metals that perform better in cold environments.
If you want to research it some, look up some of the articles regarding Allied ships sinking in the winter on return voyages during WWII. During the war, they thought German spies figured out routes home and relayed that to subs who then sank them. In the 50s, it was accidentally discovered that unloaded ships riding high in the water had significant bending stressed midship on the top cords of the structure. They would fracture and split the ships in two. I have worked on a few cases of 100 pound propane cylinders being impacted at very low temperatures and fracturing like glass.
All that said, the metals used for firearms barrels have a DBTT below the lowest temperatures measured on earth.
If you want to research it some, look up some of the articles regarding Allied ships sinking in the winter on return voyages during WWII. During the war, they thought German spies figured out routes home and relayed that to subs who then sank them. In the 50s, it was accidentally discovered that unloaded ships riding high in the water had significant bending stressed midship on the top cords of the structure. They would fracture and split the ships in two. I have worked on a few cases of 100 pound propane cylinders being impacted at very low temperatures and fracturing like glass.
All that said, the metals used for firearms barrels have a DBTT below the lowest temperatures measured on earth.
Hammerhead
New member
They didn't fare well in Korea in the icy battle of the Chosin reservoir. US troops had to resort to using Chinese bolt actions because the M1s were failing in sub-zero weather.Don't underestimate the M1 Garand in cold weather.
That is one of the reasons we developed the M-14. A shorter action and a gas port located closer to the chamber plus a gas adjustment for cold weather.
Stainless steel, although nice to have, should be avoided. The expansion/shrinkage rates for stainless steel are higher than carbon and chromoly steels. As such, tolerances will change more, and not for the better.
Big error there. Sure, if you look up common consumer grades of stainless (300 series) it has a larger co-efficient of thermal expansion than Carbon steels. But we don't use 300 grade stainless for barrels. 90% of stainless barrels are made from Carpenter or Crucible 416R stainless steel. The numbers are close if not better for the actual grades of stainless used, than Chrome Moly.
FrankenMauser
New member
Barrels don't matter much, in my opinion.Big error there. Sure, if you look up common consumer grades of stainless (300 series) it has a larger co-efficient of thermal expansion than Carbon steels. But we don't use 300 grade stainless for barrels. 90% of stainless barrels are made from Carpenter or Crucible 416R stainless steel. The numbers are close if not better for the actual grades of stainless used, than Chrome Moly.
It's the action that is going to stop you in your tracks if the tolerances tighten up and improper choice of lubrication (or lack of cleaning) exacerbates the problem.
There are actions out there (Marlin 800/900/XT series comes to mind) that use nasty, soft stainless that shrinks and expands like crazy. If they were anything even remotely close to 416R or even a 4040-series alloy, I would eat my boots.
If a person is so inclined,search for "Thermal co-efficient of expansion" of whatever material you want.It likely can be found.I seriously doubt dimensional changes are the issue.If the gun locks up,it ice or frozen lube.
I am not a metallurgist or Mechanical Engineer.I do not pretend to know the answer.
I'm pretty sure the stainlesses are more likely loose strength under extreme cold than the carbon alloy steels.
I can offer a little evidence.If you take this link to the Kreiger barrel page,you will be on the "calibers" table.Look down the page to a black header that offers Obermeyer 5R rifling.Right under that is a note explaining why they offer lighter contours in CM steel than 416 stainless,and it has to do with cold weather.
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Calibers__Prices-c1246-wp3390.htm
Schuemann is a highly regarded handgun barrelmaker.He uses 416R steel.He is willing to discussconcerns about 416
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel Steel.pdf
If you want to learn the horrors of what some solvents do to 416,Mr Scuemann has some to say about that,too.
Especially chlorinated hydrocarbons like carb cleaner.Or,a really good one,the tapping fluids based on chlorinated hydrocarbons.Old formula Rapid Tap,for example
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel_Cleaning.pdf
This link is to an Alaskan forum,discussing stainless vs CCM steel in cold
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com...-of-stainless-steel-Guns-vs-carbon-steel-guns
It starts out slow,same old opinions,till you get to case study about Ruger and the 454 Casull,how 410 and 416 did not make the cut,Carpenter steel consulted,etc. Ruger went for the good stuff.
I came away with this:"Stainless" covers too many steels.There are a lot beyond 304,410,416,etc.It does not work to characterize them all together.
I have some experience with 17-4 PH.Freedom Arms uses it.MOA Maximum uses it.I have a few treasured chunks.Its a bit tough,machining,but it machines crisp,clean...nice!!
And,bake it a couple hours at 900 f then air cool it,no warp,no scale,and someplace in the 40's Rockwell "C".Very high tensile.
Want to play with thermal coefficient of expansion?Ok,just realize the whole gun is the same temp,so the bolt,bbl,receiver,etc will all change together,although,perhaps at a slightly different rate.Not much.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-thermal-expansion-d_1379.html
I am not a metallurgist or Mechanical Engineer.I do not pretend to know the answer.
I'm pretty sure the stainlesses are more likely loose strength under extreme cold than the carbon alloy steels.
I can offer a little evidence.If you take this link to the Kreiger barrel page,you will be on the "calibers" table.Look down the page to a black header that offers Obermeyer 5R rifling.Right under that is a note explaining why they offer lighter contours in CM steel than 416 stainless,and it has to do with cold weather.
http://www.kriegerbarrels.com/Calibers__Prices-c1246-wp3390.htm
Schuemann is a highly regarded handgun barrelmaker.He uses 416R steel.He is willing to discussconcerns about 416
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel Steel.pdf
If you want to learn the horrors of what some solvents do to 416,Mr Scuemann has some to say about that,too.
Especially chlorinated hydrocarbons like carb cleaner.Or,a really good one,the tapping fluids based on chlorinated hydrocarbons.Old formula Rapid Tap,for example
http://www.schuemann.com/Portals/0/Documentation/Webfile_Barrel_Cleaning.pdf
This link is to an Alaskan forum,discussing stainless vs CCM steel in cold
http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com...-of-stainless-steel-Guns-vs-carbon-steel-guns
It starts out slow,same old opinions,till you get to case study about Ruger and the 454 Casull,how 410 and 416 did not make the cut,Carpenter steel consulted,etc. Ruger went for the good stuff.
I came away with this:"Stainless" covers too many steels.There are a lot beyond 304,410,416,etc.It does not work to characterize them all together.
I have some experience with 17-4 PH.Freedom Arms uses it.MOA Maximum uses it.I have a few treasured chunks.Its a bit tough,machining,but it machines crisp,clean...nice!!
And,bake it a couple hours at 900 f then air cool it,no warp,no scale,and someplace in the 40's Rockwell "C".Very high tensile.
Want to play with thermal coefficient of expansion?Ok,just realize the whole gun is the same temp,so the bolt,bbl,receiver,etc will all change together,although,perhaps at a slightly different rate.Not much.
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-thermal-expansion-d_1379.html
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