What are rcbs competition dies
- Thread starter Dano4734
- Start date
http://rcbs.com/Products/Dies-by-Category/Competition/Competition-Full-Length-Die-Set.aspx
RCBS® Competition Dies are meant for reloading bottleneck cartridges for competitive marksmen who measure success in fractions of a millimeter. This two-die set’s Full-Length Sizer takes cases to SAAMI minimums. It features a raised expander ball to allow extra leverage for smooth, effortless neck expansion (.204 and .25 do not feature a raised expander ball). The Seater Die doesn’t crimp; it features a micrometer for super accurate bullet seating depth in increments of 0.001 inch, as well as a bullet loading window and a seating guide that ensures correct bullet alignment before and after seating.
Are they worth the extra money? Do you need the absolute best accuracy, perhaps measured in fractions of a millimeter?
RCBS® Competition Dies are meant for reloading bottleneck cartridges for competitive marksmen who measure success in fractions of a millimeter. This two-die set’s Full-Length Sizer takes cases to SAAMI minimums. It features a raised expander ball to allow extra leverage for smooth, effortless neck expansion (.204 and .25 do not feature a raised expander ball). The Seater Die doesn’t crimp; it features a micrometer for super accurate bullet seating depth in increments of 0.001 inch, as well as a bullet loading window and a seating guide that ensures correct bullet alignment before and after seating.
Are they worth the extra money? Do you need the absolute best accuracy, perhaps measured in fractions of a millimeter?
The sizing die when bought alone is not costly, so the cost is in the seater.
Me, I love em. I hate putting my fingers under the die to put a bullet in (and I am not a turret user)
So the side slot is downright a huge help. I do a lot of COAL paly at the range and with my one die I can do the 308 and the 30-06 (308 has the extended shell holder)
As I target shoot, it also reduces a variation of higher chance of a good straight load in of the bullet (I also chamfer and most bullets are boat tail so it all helps to a good straight set in)
I like them and having tried a Forster that has a alignment sleeve but still under the die to insert, I will take the RCBS.
Bless them they even made it in 7.5 Swiss though it took a bit on the order.
For me they are worth it.
Me, I love em. I hate putting my fingers under the die to put a bullet in (and I am not a turret user)
So the side slot is downright a huge help. I do a lot of COAL paly at the range and with my one die I can do the 308 and the 30-06 (308 has the extended shell holder)
As I target shoot, it also reduces a variation of higher chance of a good straight load in of the bullet (I also chamfer and most bullets are boat tail so it all helps to a good straight set in)
I like them and having tried a Forster that has a alignment sleeve but still under the die to insert, I will take the RCBS.
Bless them they even made it in 7.5 Swiss though it took a bit on the order.
For me they are worth it.
OzeanJaeger
New member
I don’t have the RCBS, but I do use the Redding Comp Dies. The whole micrometer dial thing is a gimmick. Yes, its good to see the mics on the dail, but it doesn’t really do anything. What works is that floating sleeve that centers the bullet and goes a long way in eliminating run out. THAT is what you’re paying for, not the micrometer knob. If you use a fixed press and test your cartridges for runout you will see an immediate difference from 10-20 thou. To me that is HUGE when you consider bullet diameter to bore, and can easily add a minute to the precision of your rifle. Comp dies are for anyone who want tight groups, not just competitors shooting for groups or score. With a comp die on a fixed press I was averaging about 10, and adjusting them to 5. The comp die on a Forster eliminates run out. My bullets are seated as perfect as they can get. The concentricity tool just flickers when you rotate the cartridge. IMHO if you care about precision and have rifles that can take advantage of it they are well worth it. Yes, we’re talking about shaving inches, but for most handloaders that’s what it’s about.
OJ:
I disagree the micrometer is a gimmick.
Also the RCBS for long changes is not spot accurate (the Forster is)
That said, if I am at the range and want to change a COAL, I can do that with the RCBS and it is more than close enough.
Its easy and convenient on the bench for setting bullet depth. I can get it close, run it down and then fine tune it to what I want. I like it a lot and a real help.
If it does not suit someone that is fine, its not for everyone and maybe the cost is hard to justify.
But I don't think calling it a gimmick is right, I don't find it so and I suspect a it works for the reason I listed for others.
Saying you don't think its an asset is fine, it doesn't do anything for you is fine, calling it a gimmick I think is a bit much.
I disagree the micrometer is a gimmick.
Also the RCBS for long changes is not spot accurate (the Forster is)
That said, if I am at the range and want to change a COAL, I can do that with the RCBS and it is more than close enough.
Its easy and convenient on the bench for setting bullet depth. I can get it close, run it down and then fine tune it to what I want. I like it a lot and a real help.
If it does not suit someone that is fine, its not for everyone and maybe the cost is hard to justify.
But I don't think calling it a gimmick is right, I don't find it so and I suspect a it works for the reason I listed for others.
Saying you don't think its an asset is fine, it doesn't do anything for you is fine, calling it a gimmick I think is a bit much.
I do not have the competition full length sizing die, that sounds like a bushing die, or a body die etc. I did find a die body for seating bullets in 30/06 cases, 308 W cases and 8 MM bullets. I added an extended shell holder, I added different bushings, that made the die body affordable.
And then one day I made a seater, no die body, when it comes to seating bullets it eliminates all of the effort of seating bullets.
And then there were the 'Good Old Days', I still have Herter Universal seating die bodies, after that all that is required is the bushing that centers the bullet with the neck. One die body with a box of bushings
F. Guffey
And then one day I made a seater, no die body, when it comes to seating bullets it eliminates all of the effort of seating bullets.
And then there were the 'Good Old Days', I still have Herter Universal seating die bodies, after that all that is required is the bushing that centers the bullet with the neck. One die body with a box of bushings
F. Guffey
Dano4734,
If you want to get a competition die set, I recommend the Redding first and the Forster second. The difference is the Redding has a floating seating ram/stem, where the Forster is fixed. Both feature full length sliding sleeve case guides.
Both John Feamster, in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, and German Salazar in the Rifleman's Journal, found the RCBS Competition seater produced more cartridge runout than the standard RCBS seater. Apparently the standard RCBS seaters long, skinny adjustment stem flexes enough to approximate a floating stem. In Salazar's test of the Redding Competition Seater, a Vicker's seating die, a Wilson seating die for arbor press, the RCBS standard seating die, and one other die I've forgotten, he found the Redding produced the least runout and smallest groups on target, with the RCBS standard seater in second place and all the other expensive dies doing less well. Indeed Salazar measured case neck runout prior to seating and found the Redding Competition Seating Die was the only one could actually correct a bullet direction to remove a little of the runout in the case. It works very, very well. Having straight, concentric cartridges vs having randomly tilted bullets in your cases will typically make a difference of about 1 moa on paper over a large enough comparison sample (say, 30 rounds with and without).
So this is a situation in which you do not always get what you pay for. You need to shop. The RCBS Competition die's bullet window is very convenient, but using a Lyman M die to put a step in the mouth of a case will also prevent you having to run your fingers up to the die hanging onto the bullet. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
The micrometer seating adjustment is useful, IMHO. I use it two ways. The Redding Competition Seating Die's micrometer (not to be confused with the micrometer adapter they make for their standard seating dies) thimble has an Allen wrench screw in the top that allows you to center the adjustment and place its zero where you want. I take a typical bullet I use in the chambering the die is made for and put the mid-range zero on that bullet seated to SAAMI COL so all adjustments are relative to that. If my records show I need to be 0.052" longer with that same bullet in a particular chamber, that's a number I can then quickly get to every time. The other thing I do is for each new bullet I try, I record the setting difference to the reference bullet and can then dial in that bullet on the micrometer and hit the number on the first one any time I switch to it. Saves a lot of trial and error.
If you want to get a competition die set, I recommend the Redding first and the Forster second. The difference is the Redding has a floating seating ram/stem, where the Forster is fixed. Both feature full length sliding sleeve case guides.
Both John Feamster, in the 1995 Precision Shooting Reloading Guide, and German Salazar in the Rifleman's Journal, found the RCBS Competition seater produced more cartridge runout than the standard RCBS seater. Apparently the standard RCBS seaters long, skinny adjustment stem flexes enough to approximate a floating stem. In Salazar's test of the Redding Competition Seater, a Vicker's seating die, a Wilson seating die for arbor press, the RCBS standard seating die, and one other die I've forgotten, he found the Redding produced the least runout and smallest groups on target, with the RCBS standard seater in second place and all the other expensive dies doing less well. Indeed Salazar measured case neck runout prior to seating and found the Redding Competition Seating Die was the only one could actually correct a bullet direction to remove a little of the runout in the case. It works very, very well. Having straight, concentric cartridges vs having randomly tilted bullets in your cases will typically make a difference of about 1 moa on paper over a large enough comparison sample (say, 30 rounds with and without).
So this is a situation in which you do not always get what you pay for. You need to shop. The RCBS Competition die's bullet window is very convenient, but using a Lyman M die to put a step in the mouth of a case will also prevent you having to run your fingers up to the die hanging onto the bullet. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.
The micrometer seating adjustment is useful, IMHO. I use it two ways. The Redding Competition Seating Die's micrometer (not to be confused with the micrometer adapter they make for their standard seating dies) thimble has an Allen wrench screw in the top that allows you to center the adjustment and place its zero where you want. I take a typical bullet I use in the chambering the die is made for and put the mid-range zero on that bullet seated to SAAMI COL so all adjustments are relative to that. If my records show I need to be 0.052" longer with that same bullet in a particular chamber, that's a number I can then quickly get to every time. The other thing I do is for each new bullet I try, I record the setting difference to the reference bullet and can then dial in that bullet on the micrometer and hit the number on the first one any time I switch to it. Saves a lot of trial and error.
Since there's no button to "like" or "agree" with a post, I want to just say that I think 74A95 nailed it. If your a competitive shooter who wants to shoot five shots and end up with one hole, yes, the extra quality of competition dies may well be worth the money. If you're informally punching paper at 100 or 200 yards at a range, no.
When I got into reloading in the 1970's, it was mostly to save money (and reload pistol caliber cartridges I wasn't old enough to buy). Today, the industry supporting the reloading hobby is more bifurcated into supporting casual shooters like myself and the high precision bench-rest crowd.
The high precision equipment exists to service the shooters who have the talent, equipment and interest in exploiting it. And its price reflects it. But the ability of a set of dies to create ammunition that can put five shots through a single hole is a pointless extravagance if those dies are going to be used with plinking-grade components, filled with charges haphazardly weighed and then shot offhand out of an unmodified surplus Manlicher-Carcano. For those people, the less expensive dies will craft ammunition more accurate than most of us can shoot.
The high precision equipment exists to service the shooters who have the talent, equipment and interest in exploiting it. And its price reflects it. But the ability of a set of dies to create ammunition that can put five shots through a single hole is a pointless extravagance if those dies are going to be used with plinking-grade components, filled with charges haphazardly weighed and then shot offhand out of an unmodified surplus Manlicher-Carcano. For those people, the less expensive dies will craft ammunition more accurate than most of us can shoot.
"Pointless extravagance" I have found the problem has more to do with the rifle than the ammo and or reloading equipment. We have the great shot that claimed the ammo could fit the chamber like rat scat in a fiddle case and then there was the bench rester that claimed all a reloader had to do was full length sized his ammo and bench rester have been doing it for over a decade.
I went to the range with a new rifle, it scattered bullets like a shot gun, on the way home I called a very disciplined reloader and told him about my new purchase. He asked me to stop by to load 20 rounds in an effort to determine what the rifle liked, We returned to the range, my fired cases, his press and equipment with his components. The rifle scattered bullets like a shot gun.
I have built rifles and loaded 12 different loads with 12 different cases with different combinations of bullets and powders. I fired all 120 rounds in one day with out the groups opening up and or making an excuse for a flyer.
F. Guffey
Are we talking rifle or pistil reloading . If its a 454 I would stick with standard dies. Rifle is up to you what competition dies to get , the standard RCBS sizing die with the competition shell holders set of 5 worked great for me , the standard she'll holder with the Redding competition seating die makes seating easier. This setup gives me accurate 308 reloads.
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disseminator
New member
For the money, I don't think the Forster National Match Die Sets can be beat.
You can get them with and without the Micrometer adjustment for very reasonable prices vs other brands of premium die sets.
I'd get the Micrometer set myself. I have been known to pair up a Forster Micrometer Seating Die with Redding Body and Neck sizing dies. The Forster Comp Seaters also work great on my Dillon 550 progressive reloading machine as well as the single stage.
You can get them with and without the Micrometer adjustment for very reasonable prices vs other brands of premium die sets.
I'd get the Micrometer set myself. I have been known to pair up a Forster Micrometer Seating Die with Redding Body and Neck sizing dies. The Forster Comp Seaters also work great on my Dillon 550 progressive reloading machine as well as the single stage.
Disseminator,
One comparison that always seems to be missing from seating die tests is the Forster Benchrest Seater vs. the Redding Competition Seating Die. I'd like to test that sometime. If you read the patent on the Redding, which was applied for in 1989, the year the Forster-licensed patent on the sliding alignment sleeve design expired, it adds a floating seater to better handle alignment in a situation they claim to have identified to cause misalignment with the fixed stem design used by Forster. The thing I can't discern is what the probability of that situation arising is. So I think a more reasonable approach would be to compare the two dies side-by-side in the same chambering and then do a statistical analysis of the resulting runout to see what happens. Maybe the next time I have some money burning a hole in my pocket, I'll get a .30-06 or .308 and see if I can learn anything. The problem usually is that by the time such funds appear, something else is usually demanding them that doesn't involve duplication of tooling.
One comparison that always seems to be missing from seating die tests is the Forster Benchrest Seater vs. the Redding Competition Seating Die. I'd like to test that sometime. If you read the patent on the Redding, which was applied for in 1989, the year the Forster-licensed patent on the sliding alignment sleeve design expired, it adds a floating seater to better handle alignment in a situation they claim to have identified to cause misalignment with the fixed stem design used by Forster. The thing I can't discern is what the probability of that situation arising is. So I think a more reasonable approach would be to compare the two dies side-by-side in the same chambering and then do a statistical analysis of the resulting runout to see what happens. Maybe the next time I have some money burning a hole in my pocket, I'll get a .30-06 or .308 and see if I can learn anything. The problem usually is that by the time such funds appear, something else is usually demanding them that doesn't involve duplication of tooling.