We're LEO and NOW we don't even NEED a search warrant!

FUD

Moderator
http://www.keepandbeararms.com/newsarchives/XcNewsPlus.asp?cmd=view&articleid=668 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>No person’s liberty is safe in the last week of Congress—traditionally a time when civil liberties invasions such as wire-tapping, gun prohibitions, and the like are snuck through in the final frantic hours, with no opportunity for public opposition. This Congress is no exception. As soon as Tuesday, the House may vote on a bill, which has already passed the Senate, to drastically expand government power to conduct secret searches without judicial approval.

The bill in question comes from Senators Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont) and Orrin Hatch (R-Utah). It is S. 2516, "The Fugitive Apprehension Act." The bill allows the government to obtain any kind of document it wants, without first getting a search warrant or a subpoena from a court. These documents include any written or electronic document possessed by an individual—or possessed by a third party (such as bank records, credit card records, telephone records, school records, or an Internet Service Provider’s customer records). In other words, the bill guts the Fourth Amendment requirement that private documents should be searched only after a court issues a warrant based upon probable cause.

Even worse, section 3(g) of the bill allows these document seizures to be conducted secretly, so that the individual might never be told that his bank records, Internet records, or other documents have been searched by the government.

The bill currently applies to apprehension of "fugitives," which include people who have been charged (not convicted) of a crime, at both the federal or state level. In other words, if your wife’s second cousin never showed up in court for his drunk driving trial, the government could look at your bank records, telephone records, Internet records, and every other document about you—without a court order, and without ever telling you.

There is no law enforcement need for this provision. Under the All Writs Act, a United States Attorney can go to court, and present reasons why he needs access to private records. If the court agrees (it almost always does), the court issues a subpoena to obtain the records. This system is working well, and, notably, the United States Attorneys are not asking to change the law.

Even so, there is a very strong chance that S. 2516 will become law next week, unless Congress hears of widespread opposition. The American Civil Liberties Union, which is leading the fight against the bill on Capitol Hill, is urging to citizens to contact their Representatives and their Senators over the weekend and on Tuesday morning, in every way possible: at town hall meetings, by calling DC and local Congressional offices, and by sending e-mail or faxes. Because House Speaker Dennis Hastert has great discretion over whether to bring S. 2516 to the House floor, King urges people all over the U.S. to call his office.

The main Congressman opposing S. 2516 is Representative Bob Barr (R-Georgia). The very conservative Barr is a former United States Attorney, and one of the most prominent "law and order" Republicans in Congress—as shown by his leadership in the effort to impeach President Clinton. While the ACLU is generally considered liberal, and Barr conservative, both agree that protecting the Fourth Amendment transcends party or ideology.

Should S. 2516 become law, it would set a precedent for warrantless, secret searches on other subjects—including firearms laws. This is one reason why Barr, one of the staunchest Second Amendment defenders in Congress, is opposing the bill.

There is also a possibility that S. 2516 may be snuck through as an amendment to HR 3048, "The Presidential Protection Act of 2000." Of course S. 2516 has nothing to do with Presidential Protection. Instead, the bill is about constitutional destruction.[/quote]

[This message has been edited by FUD (edited October 08, 2000).]
 
Search Warrants??
Those pesky things have slowed down the war on drugs/the people for years whyd we ever need to get them in the first place.

Thanks FUD Ill forward the article
and will be joining KABA myself soon.
I still have a hard time eliminating AOL and having KABA as my sole server because my boss at work is pretty much and anti ( he also doesnt vote so ,LOL) and would freak if he saw that shortcut on my screen but soon we have a DSL that Id be able to access them through and have KABA as my home server since I use a DIAL up.

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"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
Search Warrants? Search Warrants?? We don't need no stinkin' Search Warrants!!

Blam! Blam! Blam! Blam! Blam!!

J.B.
 
From Utah?

I am sickened.
I am seriously pissed off.
I'm going to be right now - and wonce I have simmered off a bit... I'm going to start writing. Every newspaper in Utah. Every Delegate in/from Utah.
And I will personally call Orin Hatch's office Monday. I am seriously pissed.
I think I'll even make picket signs for the Capitol Building lawn...
 
This isn't one we can afford to not act one. WRITE YOUR REPS!!!!

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
JAY you may be off a little
its
WHAM! (door goes down) BLAM,BLAM, OR
RATATATATATAATAT, FREEZE were the atf here to make sure to make sure your guns are legal and kept track of or FREEZE were the police.
OH their dead, oh well shouldnt have been resisting or owning guns.

George did you say Orinn Hatch Mr. Juvenile
Injustice himself (bet the NRA gave him an A+++) oh god your screwed.
Glad your calling though.

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"those who sacrifice
liberty for security deserve neither"
 
In case you're not sure how broad this provision is....

Imagine this:

You're sitting at home. Federal officers are wandering the neighborhood looking for some young men who have been charged with busting mailboxes, and who escaped custody, or jumped bail. You hear a knock on your door. They say, "We're looking for a couple fugitives who are believed to be in the area. Can we search your house?".
Well, there's one other tidbit, you're a political opponent of the attorney general, and she personally hates your guts. So the two thugs outside call her up and she confers with another JBT, and they give the go ahead for the guys at your door to tear your apartment up on the pretense of searching for a "fugitive".

Well, these guys tear your place apart, go through your computer, look at all your files, confiscate property as evidence, and then leave you to pay for all the damage and the legal bills to get your property back.

This is so far from funny or good natured I could vomit. How someone from Utah could have ever written something so blatently unconstitutional baffles me. Utah TFLers. Make this guy suffer with a deluge of calls, emails, and letters. This should never have gotten this far. It is a REALLY sad state of affairs when we have to keep an eye on our reps lest they pull some crap like this with us. The whole idea of representative government is to free the average citizen up from having to run the country, it is NOT so a few jerks in Washington can make life easier for themselves.

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The Alcove

I twist the facts until they tell the truth. -Some intellectual sadist

The Bill of Rights is a document of brilliance, a document of wisdom, and it is the ultimate law, spoken or not, for the very concept of a society that holds liberty above the desire for ever greater power. -Me
 
Now how could a Senator from VT - the so-called heaven for gun owners, free thinkers,
haters of soccer moms, etc - have been suggested.

Wait - a progun guy is the second sponsor.

Mabye there is a disconnect here folks from our self-proclaimed gun mythology?
 
Enoch, what exactly do you mean by a "disconnect???"

Vermont has always been a mystery to me. They have no state gun control laws, but they turn around and elect well-known socialist Bernie Sanders to Congress. (No joke, Sanders is an Independent, but he describes himself as a socialist.) Weird.

And Orrin Hatch is about as pro-gun as Al Gore.

Later,
Chris


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"TV what do I see, tell me who to believe, what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all??" - Incubus, Idiot Box
 
This bill sucks, but if you actually read the Fourth Amendment you will see that it doesn't require warrants for searches. It only requires that searches be reasonable, and that warrants (if they are issued) be issued in a certain way. The requirement of a warrant for a search was made up by the courts. Police increasingly wanted warrants so they would be protected from lawsuits saying that their searches were "unreasonable."
 
It's my understanding that the no-warrant provision was removed from the bill a week or two ago. Can't find my reference to that right now, though.


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"People who say guns are bad are lucky enough never to have been in a situation where someone has kicked down your door and threatened the life of your son and your sixty-five-year-old mother."
-- Memphis, Tennessee resident Gina Cushon, quoted in Laura Ingraham's book "The Hillary Trap"
 
The only thing I found regarding searches was that the feds have the right to subpeona info from your bank, isp, etc. and no one has to notify you immediately. Also you can't sue the institution for nondisclosure.
Still sounds bad enough to me.

Crowe

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Well I got 6 little friends, and they can all run faster than you.
 
I guess what I mean about Vermont is that folks here and on other forums proclaim Vermont is heaven. If only we had Vermont carry. It is only because of the VT constitution that such is allowed.

I could easily see VT voters and politicians changing that if they could vote in dimwits
like above. I've seen Hatch support the RKBA but not be strong.

Legalize marijuana and cocaine, start treatment programs for addicts and let's call this WOD off. So what if people get high.
Arrest them if they misbehave in public and give rehab to those who need it.

Rather have more grass and less booze around.

All these damn no-knocks for drugs set the precedent for gun confiscation raids. And yes, you will be killed despite your prowess with an AR-15. They will just blow you up or burn you down like Waco.
 
Alright George, ready to start TRT Utah yet? Seems like we need it pretty bad right now.

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Being a pessimist is great, I'm always right or pleasantly surprised.
 
I'm going to ask what I truly hope is a dumb question, one that has an obvious answer, that being that all do, well perhaps most do.

Question: How many of the angry posters of the 6900 plus members of TFL actually vote, have actually contacted "elected things" on this or other matters, contribute something more than mere lip service to the cause of retaining our diminishing civil rights? Ditto for how many gun owners, shooters and "sporting types"?

Answer:???
 
Speaking for myself, I vote in EVERY election and the GUN issue is my primary point of focus when deciding who to cast my vote for. When these type of things are made public, my first course of action is an e-mail to my elected officials. If time is a factor, a phone call is also placed. If time is not a factor (meaning that things are still weeks or months away), I compose a letter -- <OL TYPE=1> <LI> one for me,
<LI> one for my wife,
<LI> one for my Mom,
<LI> one for my wife's uncle,
<LI> one for my wife's uncle's wife
<LI> one for my wife's uncle's wife's daughter
<LI> one for my wife's uncle's wife's daughter's husband</OL>I just run the same letter off on the computer changing the name & address. The next time I socially see each of these individuals, I give them the letter asking for their signature. I then place it in an addressed envelope, put a stamp on it and send them on their merry way.

I'm fairly new to my current surroundings but when I lived up north and knew more pro-gun individuals, over a dozen letters use to go out these way.
 
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