Wellwhatdoyaknow . . . I'm human afterall

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Nick_C_S

New member
I know I'm human. And I've had plenty of life's humbling moments to know that I'm quite capable of making mistakes. But in 32 years, and what must be about 150,000 rounds by my best guestimate, I had yet to load a flawed round.

Until today. Just came back from the range. I had my first squib ever.

357 Mag. X-treme plated 158 SWC. 4.8gns TiteGroup (intended, at least :p). CCI 500 primer. Taper crimp. Smith 686+, 3" bbl.

The round made no noise at all - just "click." Then the cylinder wouldn't rotate. Upon close inspection, thanks to X-treme's super shiny plating, it was easy to see that the bullet had jumped crimp and just barely made it to the barrel/cylinder gap. The RSO got a brass rod n rubber mallet and pushed it back clear of the cylinder. Primer strike looked normal.

Got it home and pulled it - not even a speck of propellant inside :(

I loaded the batch of 100 on 2/24 this year. That was a Wednesday. This household tends to have a lot of family commotion going on during the weekends, but it's usually quiet on the weekdays. So being distracted isn't likely (and I generally know better than to load while distracted anyway).

And although I load on a progressive, I charge all my rounds by hand, using an RCBS Uniflow and 50-round Sinclair loading blocks. After charging, I put the block under strong light and check each and every round for powder level. I consider this the single most critical control point of loading, and would never intentionally skip it. Evidently, I must have missed it this one time. Not only I must have missed inspection; but I also must have missed charging a case. Either one by itself would be a highly unlikely event; much less, both at the same time. Seems so extremely unlikely this could have happened; but the proof is sitting on my load bench right now.

At the range today, I discharged 64 (well, okay, 63 :p) of this batch of 100 without any other anomalies (I shot 14 more rounds after the squib incident). 36 rounds remain. This is one of those rounds where you can shake and hear the powder inside. The house has the above mentioned weekend commotion going on right now; and I have tinnitus (ringing in the ears), so I won't be able to check for powder right now. First thing tomorrow morning, it'll be quiet; and my ears will be at their most calm. I'll give the remaining the shake test to listen for powder.

This kind of bums me out a little. Or "disturbed," might be more accurate. I'm a really really careful loader. My processes and safety habits are decades old. Kind of shakes the confidence a little.
 
Assuming all the brass is from the same lot it might be possible to detect an under charge or over charge of 4.8 grains using a scale. If the brass is mixed headstamp the variation from different manufacturers would make it difficult, if not impossible.
 
It's mixed brass. And even if they were like brass, I wouldn't trust the weighing method - just too much normal variance in brass and bullet weight to try to detect a mere 5 grains. And I only have a balance scale, so that further complicates this method. Furthermore, it's not that critical. The shake test will tell me if there's powder or not. If I felt a need to know beyond that, I'd just pull 'em. They're heavy 158's and they're taper crimped - they'd pop out pretty easy.
 
I'm new to reloading and do 223rem. I did the same thing 2 weeks ago but caught it before it went into the box.

Now I shake each round to ensure there is powder. when I lift the shell from the loading block I put my finger over the mouth and shake and into the press for a bullet. I then shake it again once I load the whole box I will shake each one next to my ear to hear if there is powder.
 
Not only I must have missed inspection; but I also must have missed charging a case. Either one by itself would be a highly unlikely event; much less, both at the same time. Seems so extremely unlikely this could have happened; but the proof is sitting on my load bench right now.
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I'm not familiar with Titegroup, how much does it fill the case?

It's highly possible that you charged one case twice. You obviously missed the one with NO powder, it's even easier to miss the powder level being slightly higher in another one.

nick_c_s said:
The shake test will tell me if there's powder or not.
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Yeah, but if you did double charge one, the "shake test" won't tell you which one has the double charge.

You've only got 36 left, I'd pull them. Won't take but 10 or 15 minutes, could save you a gun or some serious injury.

Good luck!
 
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I'm not familiar with Titegroup, how much does it fill the case?
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Very little. At 4.8 grains, you could probably throw 4 or even 5 charges before it would overflow the case. It's very dense. And the charge volume is so small that a double-charge may actually be difficult to spot. So your point is quite valid.

if you did double charge one, the "shake test" won't tell you which one has the double charge.
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I know.

I'd pull them. . . . could save you a gun or some serious injury.
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It's under consideration. I'm gonna sleep on it. And do the shake test tomorrow. I don't want to fall into the trap of second-guessing every round I load. It's impossible to shoot well if you don't have confidence in your ammo. But I guess this batch has earned me the right to second-guess it. Worthy of note: I loaded 100 of the same recipe just the day before. I shot all 100 of those today too - without a problem.
 
Gee, Nick that's unsettling. But I've been there. I've never shot a squib.....yet (have caught one before the bullet was seated. 40 years of luck is holding, but I feel less sure of myself the older I get.

The problem is interruptions/distractions. 10 years ago a distraction or even a batch interruption for a few hours seemed to be no problem. But now interruptions are flat dangerous. Memory isn't what it used to be.

I hate it, but if I get a forced interruption for more than a couple of hours.....I have to start over.

And although I load on a progressive, I charge all my rounds by hand, using an RCBS Uniflow and 50-round Sinclair loading blocks. After charging, I put the block under strong light and check each and every round for powder level. I consider this the single most critical control point of loading, and would never intentionally skip it.
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Especially your experience is unsettling because I don't go to your extreme to measure and drop charges off press when I load on my progressive. And I'm fully aware that a powder bridge is possible for some powders.....including my favorite .45 ACP powder Unique. A double load isn't easy to miss using Unique, one charage fills the case pretty well, but that don't help squibs.

If a squib can happen to you doing your off press ritual.....maybe I need to reevaluate.

I HATE getting old. :mad:
 
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GWS: Age is probably playing a role here (I'm 53).

I HATE getting old.
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It's better than the alternative ;)

I think I know what happened . . .

As I get close to getting my Uniflow adjusted to the proper charge weight, if the charge is "close enough," I'll put it into a case (keep in mind, that this was your basic range ammo, and hitting the charge weight exact wasn't that critical). Make the slight adjustment on the Uniflow - then throw another charge, and weigh. If it's close enough, that one goes into a case too. Once I've got the Uniflow set where it's consistently throwing the correct charge weight, I start dropping charges directly into the cases without weighing. But the first 5, 6, 7, or however many, were actually weighed. The number of cases charged and weighed before making the transition to just dropping into cases varies. Thinking about, this could be problematic.

I think I may have thought I weighed - say - 7 charges, then starting dropping directly into the cases at #8. But in reality, I had only weighed 6 charges - so #7 never got charged. But I still had to miss the charge level check step - and that's highly concerning.

I tumble my cases with ss pins and they are shiny on the inside. Once they are charged, it's easy to see from even a distance of several feet away because the dull powder kills the inside shine. You can pick out an uncharged case from the other 49 charged cases instantly. But that's with brass. These were nickel. And old nickel at that. They're not shiny inside like brass brass. I believe that contributed. The perfect storm, so to speak.

I truly believe that's what happened. I also believe that I still must have been distracted somehow (at least twice, actually).

I will consider abandoning the practice of putting "close enough" charges into the cases. Maybe I shouldn't begin charging the cases at all until the Uniflow is set, then start dropping directly into cases from case #1. See, even an old guy can learn.
 
Well sooner or later we all get human I guess. But for those of us who reside in taxifornia, it may be questionable if we are completely normal humans for selecting that residence. Check occasionally to verify that we have opposable thumbs and can use tools that are more advanced than those made of stone.
 
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Human error happens - but glad you caught it...and it wasn't more serious. ...

Titegroup is a very good powder - but as you suggest visibly very hard to inspect ..../ it's my go to powder in a lot of calibers - but I wouldn't use it without a powder check die installed in my press.

While I think you can see a double charge of 9.6 vs 4.8 in a .357 mag case ....you sure can't see variations of 0.5 -- 1.0 gr and that will put you beyond published min & max / visual inspection is a repetitive action - making it vulnerable to monotony & fatigue..../ consider installing a powder check die if possible ....or consider a much bulkier powder....

And i'd pull and weigh the powder drops in the rest of your cartridges .....vs relying on a shake test...if for no other reason ( to get your confidence back in your ammo )...
 
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This morning, I gave them the shake test. The remaining 36 all have powder in them. How much? I don't know. But actually, I believe that if one had a double charge, the sound of the powder would have a different pitch. I believe the remainders are fine.

But . . .

I am also confident that I must not have checked the powder levels of at least one of the two loading blocks of 50 when I was loading them. The question then becomes: Would I use ammo where I didn't check the powder levels? And the answer is "no."

I'm pulling them.
 
I use a method similar to yours, except when my Uniflow drop charge is not exactly on, I dump the scale pan back into the Uniflow hopper. I do not start charging the cases until the balance beam scale gives three successive readings that are "right on."

I personally have never been comfortable with charging a case without a manual inspection of the powder level. I charge 50 in a loading block (also Sinclair) and then use a strong flashlight to inspect the level in each case.

You are really saving only 15-20 seconds of time by dumping the "close enough" charge in a case as opposed to back in the hopper. You could also get a double charge if you over ran your count by one a dumped a perfect charge into a case that already had a close enough charge.

All said, your record of one squib per 150,000 rounds is commendable.
 
As we age, we must learn to take extra precautions. I'm sure you know all the safety measures for charging rounds, but we sometimes need to slow down a bit (heck, when I was 53 I was still chasing wemmens! I can't chase them as far now at 68!). :D
 
Excellent post mkl - the whole thing. I see it exactly the same way. It's time to make that adjustment - "test charges" go back in the hopper from now on - even the "close enough" ones.

heck, when I was 53 I was still chasing wemmens! I can't chase them as far now at 68!
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Let me guess: You're not as good as you once were; but your as good once as you ever were. :p
 
Well this is very disappointing for me . I've always read your post and have considered you one of the more respected ( knowledge wise ) here on the reloading forum . But now that I know you are "JUST" human . I'm just not sure what to do . I may have to stop reloading all together :D

oh man I crack me up ;)

Not only I must have missed inspection; but I also must have missed charging a case. Either one by itself would be a highly unlikely event; much less, both at the same time. Seems so extremely unlikely this could have happened;
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I have a similar event in my life . I get home park my truck in the drive way as I always do . Go inside and continue with my evening . Next morning comes and I need to do some work in the back yards so I start that . A few hours later my neighbor comes over a says my truck has rolled across the street and smashed through his landscape wall .

Yea right ? I parked the truck in my drive way 17 hours ago and it just now decides to roll out . He says REALY your tuck is across the street . I go out and sure enough there's my truck smashed through the wall .

I go over and the windows are up and the doors are locked . OK??? hmm I get in and the truck is out of gear AND the brake is off . COM-ON MAN you telling me I not only did not set the break but did not put the truck in gear either ??????????????????????????? :confused: Oh wait and it still sat in my drive way for 17 hours before rolling out ??????????????????????????? :confused: To this day I'm still in a little bit of denial on that whole incident .
 
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I'm so fed up with reloading right now. Not making mistakes, actually, but NOTHING IS FRIGGING WORKING!!! A few weeks ago I got the oal about .006 too long, wouldn't work. Bought bullets that didn't work. Decided that the powder I was using wasn't working. Bought new bullets that don't work. Had the WEIRDEST POSSIBLE event with a bad case. Just last Friday, I test fired some rounds, and realized that the lands in the barrel weren't tapered. One of the bullets that I recovered had the grooves gouged all the war to the lead core, and the jacket was folded back and ironed onto the base of the bullet. I'm at the point of wanting to give up on loading anything but revolvers.
 
I can understand the possibility of messing up a round a lapse in concentration is all it takes, so I've built in so many redundant checks that it would take several mistakes to result in a bad round.

About three years ago I has at a range, and went to tell privy once my gear was put up. I put my ccw on the side of the truck bed, obviously on the passenger side, so I wouldn't risk losing it into the pit of "if it falls into that it's lost forever." Kinda hard to believe that one could lose quality pistol into an open pot while taking a leak, but things like that happen to me.

Got in my truck and was backing out of my space when I noticed my pistol on the edge when I looked in my mirror.

I try so hard to keep this stuff from happening.
 
I'm so fed up with reloading right now. Not making mistakes, actually, but NOTHING IS FRIGGING WORKING!!! A few weeks ago I got the oal about .006 too long, wouldn't work. Bought bullets that didn't work. Decided that the powder I was using wasn't working. Bought new bullets that don't work. Had the WEIRDEST POSSIBLE event with a bad case. Just last Friday, I test fired some rounds, and realized that the lands in the barrel weren't tapered. One of the bullets that I recovered had the grooves gouged all the war to the lead core, and the jacket was folded back and ironed onto the base of the bullet. I'm at the point of wanting to give up on loading anything but revolver
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s.

Welcome to the wonderful, oft confusing and frustrating world of reloading!
I often tell fellers to go slow, double check everything, and most important, have fun. Sometime we can get so frustrated we'll have to stop, and go back to basics:D...
 
Yeah but briandg has been around the block a time or two and it is my impression that he is just pulling our leg on that one, couldn't quite keep up with all the discrepancies he was describing. But on the other hand perhaps acknowledging that he had been "humanized" also.
 
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