I recently acquired a Webley Mark II that appears to be in very good shape. However it has been nickel plated. Im not sure what this does to the guns value. Im trying to decide if I should keep it as a heirloom or if I should sell it. Any knowledge that could be imparted would be greatly appreciated . I just don't know enough about it and what I have found on the internet is limited at best .
Webley Mark II need some advice
- Thread starter nekremac
- Start date
"...what this does to the gun's value..." Drops it by at least half.
A Webley Mark II, adopted in 1894, uses .455 Webley ammo.(assuming it is a Mk II. How long's the barrel?) 265 grain lead round-nosed bullet at about 650 FPS.
Or should, Who knows what the guy who plated it did. Slug the barrel first.
Fiocchi used to load ammo that is currently not made. Runs about $70 per 50. I think brass can be made out of .45 Colt.
A Webley Mark II, adopted in 1894, uses .455 Webley ammo.(assuming it is a Mk II. How long's the barrel?) 265 grain lead round-nosed bullet at about 650 FPS.
Or should, Who knows what the guy who plated it did. Slug the barrel first.
Fiocchi used to load ammo that is currently not made. Runs about $70 per 50. I think brass can be made out of .45 Colt.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Weley Mk II?
BLACK POWDER ONLY.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
BLACK POWDER ONLY.
Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk
agreed BLACK POWDER ONLY!
DO NOT use smokeless powder, even at black powder pressure levels.
The only Webleys I know that are rated for smokeless powder are the Mk V and Mk VI. And, not very much of that. They look big and strong, but they are just big.
You will find a number of Mk VI's that have been cut to use .45acp BRASS in half moon clips. This MIGHT have been done to some other Webleys as well.
NEVER USE .45ACP ammunition in these guns!!!
Standard .45ACP ball ammo is a proof level load in the Mk VI, and an overload, in every earlier Webley as well.
I'll do some digging, hopefully will have some info about the Mk II in a day or so..
Description of all markings would be helpful and clear pictures would be best, if possible.
DO NOT use smokeless powder, even at black powder pressure levels.
The only Webleys I know that are rated for smokeless powder are the Mk V and Mk VI. And, not very much of that. They look big and strong, but they are just big.
You will find a number of Mk VI's that have been cut to use .45acp BRASS in half moon clips. This MIGHT have been done to some other Webleys as well.
NEVER USE .45ACP ammunition in these guns!!!
Standard .45ACP ball ammo is a proof level load in the Mk VI, and an overload, in every earlier Webley as well.
I'll do some digging, hopefully will have some info about the Mk II in a day or so..
Description of all markings would be helpful and clear pictures would be best, if possible.
The Webley Mk II was adopted in 1894, and was replaced with the Mk III in 1897. I have no information, currently, on number produced.
The earliest Webley rated safe for smokeless powder is the Mk IV (Mark 4).
The proper ammo for a Mk II is .455 Webley, loaded with black powder.
I don't know of any commercially produced today. Smokeless powder .455 is available, but not cheap. Any competent reloader could pull the bullets from commercial smokeless .455 ammo and reload the cases with black powder to use in your Mk II.
You would need a .455 seater die of some kind. An old Lyman .45acp die MIGHT work, I don't know. If not, then metal could be removed from the bottom of the die so it would work. The .45acp case specs 0.898" the .455 Webley is 0.77".
I have a 1970s era Lyman .45acp seater die, and at that time they still had a roll crimp built in If you can't find a .45acp die with a roll crimp, you could use any .45 Colt seater die, you'd just have to shorten the die body more.
I don't know anything about the Lee collet crimp die, I don't have any and don't use them. Perhaps someone who does could tell you if they would work, and if so, would it be cheaper than getting a used seater die and having about a quarter inch cut off the bottom? I don't know.
As to the nickel plating on your Mk II, it, literally, could have been done at any time from the 1890s on. In the black powder era, nickel plating was the best way to protect a pistol.
The earliest Webley rated safe for smokeless powder is the Mk IV (Mark 4).
The proper ammo for a Mk II is .455 Webley, loaded with black powder.
I don't know of any commercially produced today. Smokeless powder .455 is available, but not cheap. Any competent reloader could pull the bullets from commercial smokeless .455 ammo and reload the cases with black powder to use in your Mk II.
You would need a .455 seater die of some kind. An old Lyman .45acp die MIGHT work, I don't know. If not, then metal could be removed from the bottom of the die so it would work. The .45acp case specs 0.898" the .455 Webley is 0.77".
I have a 1970s era Lyman .45acp seater die, and at that time they still had a roll crimp built in If you can't find a .45acp die with a roll crimp, you could use any .45 Colt seater die, you'd just have to shorten the die body more.
I don't know anything about the Lee collet crimp die, I don't have any and don't use them. Perhaps someone who does could tell you if they would work, and if so, would it be cheaper than getting a used seater die and having about a quarter inch cut off the bottom? I don't know.
As to the nickel plating on your Mk II, it, literally, could have been done at any time from the 1890s on. In the black powder era, nickel plating was the best way to protect a pistol.
.45 Autorim was created to safely shoot in MkVI Webleys that had their cylinders shaved to take .45 ACP. Do these cases fit in Mark II? Since brass and dies are generally available this might be an alternative, in black powder loads, for older Webleys. Something to investigate.
No, the .45 AR was created to allow use in the S&W Model 1917 and Colt Model 1917 without the half-moon clips, although the military never used .45 AR. It was another war surplus cycle before the Webleys were modified to take .45 ACP and .45 AR, not a good choice since even the MK VI is not strong enough for extensive use with .45 ACP. The .45 AR is somewhat more lightly loaded than the .45 ACP (it doesn't have to function an auto pistol).
FWIW, there is still a lot of confusion about the Webley "Marks". Webley did indeed make, and mark, revolvers for the British military, but they also made a lot of revolvers for the commercial market and some of those were designated by the "Mark" system ("Mark" simply means model). As an example, the British government Mark IV is a .455 caliber revolver; the Webley Mark IV is a .38 caliber (.38 S&W) revolver which was used by the service in WWII to supplement the government Enfield revolver.
Jim
FWIW, there is still a lot of confusion about the Webley "Marks". Webley did indeed make, and mark, revolvers for the British military, but they also made a lot of revolvers for the commercial market and some of those were designated by the "Mark" system ("Mark" simply means model). As an example, the British government Mark IV is a .455 caliber revolver; the Webley Mark IV is a .38 caliber (.38 S&W) revolver which was used by the service in WWII to supplement the government Enfield revolver.
Jim
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jim is correct.
The Peters Cartridge Company brought the .45 Auto Rim to market around 1920 in response to demand for ammo for surplus Colt and Smith & Wesson Model of 1917 revolvers.
Not 100% certain, but I believe that commercial .45 AR ammo was only loaded with lead bullets.
Here's a Peters flyer from 1919 announcing the cartridge.
The Peters Cartridge Company brought the .45 Auto Rim to market around 1920 in response to demand for ammo for surplus Colt and Smith & Wesson Model of 1917 revolvers.
Not 100% certain, but I believe that commercial .45 AR ammo was only loaded with lead bullets.
Here's a Peters flyer from 1919 announcing the cartridge.
Mike Irwin
Staff
And here's something equally interesting...
At the same time Peters was rolling out 9mm Luger and 8mm Mauser to supply demand for ammo for trophies brought back from the war.
At the same time Peters was rolling out 9mm Luger and 8mm Mauser to supply demand for ammo for trophies brought back from the war.
Interesting how expensive 45 AR/45 ACP ammo was back in the day.
$52.50 a thousand, $5.25/100. Average wage was 56¢/hr. So 100 rds took 9.37 hrs of labor to buy. (9.37 x .56= $5.25)
2017 average wage per hour, $22. In today's money (9.37 x 22) a hundred rounds of
45 would cost over $200!!!
$52.50 a thousand, $5.25/100. Average wage was 56¢/hr. So 100 rds took 9.37 hrs of labor to buy. (9.37 x .56= $5.25)
2017 average wage per hour, $22. In today's money (9.37 x 22) a hundred rounds of
45 would cost over $200!!!
Mike Irwin
Staff
According to a .gov CPI calculator that I found, $5.25 in 1920 is equal to $66.60 in today's money.
Model12Win
Moderator
9mm hollow points in the 1920s??
Is this for real?
Is this for real?
Mike Irwin
Staff
Yes, it's for real.
Hollow point bullets have been around a lot longer than most people know/realize.
Hollow point bullets have been around a lot longer than most people know/realize.
I have a Mk. I that belonged to my dad, and in the '60s his mom kept it on the nightstand, loaded with Canadian, WWII-surplus ammo, but I doubt the gun was ever fired with that ammo.
The bore is almost smooth, and I've thought about loading some soft lead over one or another black powder substitute, but have never got around to it.
The early Mk. I black powder case is a bit longer than the more common Mk. II, and cut-down .45 Colt can be trimmed to whatever length you want.
The bore is almost smooth, and I've thought about loading some soft lead over one or another black powder substitute, but have never got around to it.
The early Mk. I black powder case is a bit longer than the more common Mk. II, and cut-down .45 Colt can be trimmed to whatever length you want.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Is it possible to have chrome removed?"
Yes, but often it leaves a mess that has to be refinished somehow.
Yes, but often it leaves a mess that has to be refinished somehow.
Model12Win
Moderator
Extremely cool. It is interesting to think the same style of load and cartridge that people with Glock or Berettas sleep with at night in their guns has basically been around for 100 years at this point, and there is no sign of a 9mm hollow point becoming obsolete anytime soon, more like the opposite with many departments going back to the 9 and many civilians following suit.
The big difference is that the hollowpoints of those days were either (somewhat soft) lead revolver bullets (which did work, usually) and the usual FMJ semi auto pistol bullets that had a small hole in the tip. They MIGHT work, sometimes...
I can remember 1960s era factory .25 acp hollowpoints, though I no longer remember who made them. and no, the didn't expand...
then Super Vel came along, and the world of semi auto JHPs started to change...for the better!
I am a little curious about the markings, on your Mk II, anything to indicate where it might have served. It might have served in almost any military or police organization any where in the British Empire, at one time. British officers often bought their pistols, and may "military" pistols entered the civilian market when their owners no longer had need of them.
I'm no expert in British markings, but there are those here who are better informed than I am. I do know that there are certain marks that should be on the gun if it was officially released for sale, and other marks that might tell some history. And sometimes, a single stamped marking makes the difference to a collector, between a $200 gun and a $2000 gun, (with a Luger, it can be the difference between a $2000 gun and a $20,000 gun!)and if you hit the jackpot, even chromed, your gun might be more valuable. Not likely, of course, but until you've researched the markings, you can't rule it out.
If you want to gun to look like it did when new, and price doesn't matter, call Turnbull, they do the best work in the country these days, but expect to pay a lot more than just getting it buffed and re-chromed by Platings-R-Us.
I can remember 1960s era factory .25 acp hollowpoints, though I no longer remember who made them. and no, the didn't expand...
then Super Vel came along, and the world of semi auto JHPs started to change...for the better!
I am a little curious about the markings, on your Mk II, anything to indicate where it might have served. It might have served in almost any military or police organization any where in the British Empire, at one time. British officers often bought their pistols, and may "military" pistols entered the civilian market when their owners no longer had need of them.
I'm no expert in British markings, but there are those here who are better informed than I am. I do know that there are certain marks that should be on the gun if it was officially released for sale, and other marks that might tell some history. And sometimes, a single stamped marking makes the difference to a collector, between a $200 gun and a $2000 gun, (with a Luger, it can be the difference between a $2000 gun and a $20,000 gun!)and if you hit the jackpot, even chromed, your gun might be more valuable. Not likely, of course, but until you've researched the markings, you can't rule it out.
If you want to gun to look like it did when new, and price doesn't matter, call Turnbull, they do the best work in the country these days, but expect to pay a lot more than just getting it buffed and re-chromed by Platings-R-Us.