LineStretcher
New member
In regards to actual Weatherby rifles not other manufacturers, is anyone reloading for these?
Weatherby Mark V and Vanguard Reloading
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LineStretcher
New member
Agree with case life being short. I reload for the .257, 6.5-300 and 300. I recently rebarreld a 1960's German .257 to 300. I cut it off at the beginning of the lands and then machined the chamber into a cutaway. Once it was cut away I measured the bore before the lands and came up with .255. Then I measured the lands at the remaining portion of the barrel and they are at .253. Bullet diameter is .256.
Weatherby Premium Factory ammo with a Barnes TTSX has a COL of 3.130 while Hornady recommends on average 3.180. SAAMI COL is 3.170.
So, with Weatherby Factory ammo at 3.130, the jump from the Ogive to the lands is an incredible .700". Makes you wonder how they are so accurate. The answer I believe is in the undersized bore. I believe it swages the bullet and aligns it in the bore before it hits the lands and starts to spin. I sent an email to Weatherby to see if I was on the right track. If I am, then the number one thing you can do to improve accuracy is to ensure that your bullets are seated concentric and that the case is crimped correctly so that adequate pressure is available to do the swaging. That's pure conjecture on my part at this point. Weatherby may tell me if I right or not.
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It is a common misconception that bullets have to be seated close to the lands to obtain good accuracy. This simply isn’t always true. The Contender barrels made by SSK for example have quite a bit of freebore, and these can be highly accurate.
I currently load for two .257 Weatherbys, one an Accumark and the other a custom Ruger No. 1 by Jarrett. The Accumark has about 0.4” of freebore but the Ruger has no freebore. I can’t use normal .257 load data with the Ruger, I need to reduce its loads by 4-5 grains. The Ruger aggs in the low 0.4s with its best loads (as expected with a custom barrel, tight chamber, etc) but the Accumark aggs in the 0.7s with its best load. The Ruger is far less finicky to load for and it is fun to shoot such small groups from a Ruger single shot. But really, the Accumark has all the accuracy anyone would need for most uses of the cartridge.
I use cases made by PMC several years ago. These are the toughest cases I’ve ever seen, and over-pressured loads which will sharply tattoo the ejector hole on the case head of a Weatherby, Norma or Remington case don’t do so with the PMC cases.
I was interested to hear about the tight bore being a potential contributor to good accuracy, I’d never heard that and it makes sense. I find that my Accumark and a previous Mark V shot best with bullets having a long bearing surface, which I assumed helped reduce bullet tipping in the freebore. The most accurate bullet in the Accumark is the Hornady 120HP. Sadly it is discontinued, but I have enough to last me.
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I currently load for two .257 Weatherbys, one an Accumark and the other a custom Ruger No. 1 by Jarrett. The Accumark has about 0.4” of freebore but the Ruger has no freebore. I can’t use normal .257 load data with the Ruger, I need to reduce its loads by 4-5 grains. The Ruger aggs in the low 0.4s with its best loads (as expected with a custom barrel, tight chamber, etc) but the Accumark aggs in the 0.7s with its best load. The Ruger is far less finicky to load for and it is fun to shoot such small groups from a Ruger single shot. But really, the Accumark has all the accuracy anyone would need for most uses of the cartridge.
I use cases made by PMC several years ago. These are the toughest cases I’ve ever seen, and over-pressured loads which will sharply tattoo the ejector hole on the case head of a Weatherby, Norma or Remington case don’t do so with the PMC cases.
I was interested to hear about the tight bore being a potential contributor to good accuracy, I’d never heard that and it makes sense. I find that my Accumark and a previous Mark V shot best with bullets having a long bearing surface, which I assumed helped reduce bullet tipping in the freebore. The most accurate bullet in the Accumark is the Hornady 120HP. Sadly it is discontinued, but I have enough to last me.
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LineStretcher
New member
Here's a couple of pics of the cutaway. This gives you an idea of what Weatherby does. Some people say that flat based bullets shoot better in Weatherby's and I think there might be some validity to that but not to the great extent claimed.
One thing that is certainly explained is why Weatherby's copper foul more than most any other rifle.
This first picture is of a Weatherby Factory Select Plus round. Notice the crimp at the cannelure, that's a full roll crimp.
The lands begin at the second piece of the barrel
There are no lands present here. You would have to force the bullet through the chamber at this point. I chamfered the bore after milling just to be sure I wasn't hitting a burr.
One thing that is certainly explained is why Weatherby's copper foul more than most any other rifle.
This first picture is of a Weatherby Factory Select Plus round. Notice the crimp at the cannelure, that's a full roll crimp.
The lands begin at the second piece of the barrel
There are no lands present here. You would have to force the bullet through the chamber at this point. I chamfered the bore after milling just to be sure I wasn't hitting a burr.
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While i'm not sure about the barrel bore diameter situation, Weatherby freely admits to a long throat.
This is to help keep pressures in check.
From Weatherby, " best accuracy comes from keeping runout to a minimum".
Hence bullet straight in the casing, bullet straight into the bore.
This is to help keep pressures in check.
From Weatherby, " best accuracy comes from keeping runout to a minimum".
Hence bullet straight in the casing, bullet straight into the bore.
reynolds357
New member
Yes, a lot of them.
LineStretcher
New member
Are you doing any Vanguard S2's in standard cartridges like .308 or 270? I have Mark V's in .257, 6.5-300 and 300 and I have them pretty well dialed in and shooting .5 MOA at 100 yards.
One reloads for a specific rifle, not a brand. A heavy crimp like that is detrimental to accuracy.
"...the cutaway..." Isn't a rifle. It's a training aid. Every chamber is going to be different anyway. Regardless of the brand or model of rifle.
Please reduce the size of your pictures.
"...the cutaway..." Isn't a rifle. It's a training aid. Every chamber is going to be different anyway. Regardless of the brand or model of rifle.
Please reduce the size of your pictures.
T.O.
You are almost totally incorrect...
While with standard cartridges (243,308,270,30-06) one would load for the rifle, aka distance from the lands.
In the case of Weatherby Magnums however this is not usually the case. Weatherby uses a long throat (leade) on their rifles. This is due to the pressures that Weatherby loads to. The long throat, helps keep pressures in check.
You will also find this on lever, Semi-auto, auto, pump, break open rifles also.
There are cartridges also, albeit chambered in a modern bolt rifle, that have long throats (284 Winchester).
You would be very hard pressed to load a 140gr. hunting bullet out to 0.020" off the lands in my 284 Win.
As far as the crimp is concerned.
The pictures are of a Weatherby Magnum. Essentially a 300 H&H casing, blown out. Hence lots of powder. Accuracy is NOT improved if the bullet and powder are laying in the magazine after the first shot.
Also, he has pictured a Barnes monolithic bullet. (I'm thinking a TTSX)
Monolith bullets like more run to the lands of the barrel. (again helps keep pressures in check)
It has also been found by many shooting monolith bullets that a crimp helps with accuracy.
As for the picture size, some of us like the double radius of the Weatherby cartridges.
You are almost totally incorrect...
While with standard cartridges (243,308,270,30-06) one would load for the rifle, aka distance from the lands.
In the case of Weatherby Magnums however this is not usually the case. Weatherby uses a long throat (leade) on their rifles. This is due to the pressures that Weatherby loads to. The long throat, helps keep pressures in check.
You will also find this on lever, Semi-auto, auto, pump, break open rifles also.
There are cartridges also, albeit chambered in a modern bolt rifle, that have long throats (284 Winchester).
You would be very hard pressed to load a 140gr. hunting bullet out to 0.020" off the lands in my 284 Win.
As far as the crimp is concerned.
The pictures are of a Weatherby Magnum. Essentially a 300 H&H casing, blown out. Hence lots of powder. Accuracy is NOT improved if the bullet and powder are laying in the magazine after the first shot.
Also, he has pictured a Barnes monolithic bullet. (I'm thinking a TTSX)
Monolith bullets like more run to the lands of the barrel. (again helps keep pressures in check)
It has also been found by many shooting monolith bullets that a crimp helps with accuracy.
As for the picture size, some of us like the double radius of the Weatherby cartridges.
LineStretcher
New member
ROFLOL... Once again, you prove you know nothing. What are you doing here anyway.
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The headspace for 257 Wby,270Wby,7Wby is same as any belt mag and one thing they have in common is same Wby free bore .378 and case length is same. Saami Spec COL will vary but for 257Wby/270Wby it's appr same 3.250" and 7 Wby is 3.360".
Case length is 2.549 and COL is 3.250".
If Wby using something beside SAAMI Spec list for Wby bore/groove they sure don't list that on reamer print.
I shot 270Wby without Wby free bore and it didn't hurt accuracy one bit. I get same velocity as Wby with free bore and I use less powder.
Bob Hutton, Tech Editor for Guns & Ammo did write up on 30-338Wby as a match rifle. Wby wasn't chamber one and Bob Hutton had Ackley chamber one of it and it has his 40 deg shoulders. They shot it at Wimbledon Cup.
std7mag, those picture 257Wby case are a shorten 300Wby case so there not blown out
Case length is 2.549 and COL is 3.250".
If Wby using something beside SAAMI Spec list for Wby bore/groove they sure don't list that on reamer print.
I shot 270Wby without Wby free bore and it didn't hurt accuracy one bit. I get same velocity as Wby with free bore and I use less powder.
Bob Hutton, Tech Editor for Guns & Ammo did write up on 30-338Wby as a match rifle. Wby wasn't chamber one and Bob Hutton had Ackley chamber one of it and it has his 40 deg shoulders. They shot it at Wimbledon Cup.
std7mag, those picture 257Wby case are a shorten 300Wby case so there not blown out
LineStretcher
New member
You are correct. The SAMMI specs for the reamer are, well, SAMMI specs. They are not consistent with my findings but they are consistent with what you would find in a third party chamber.
The pictures of the cut away are not that of some training aid, they are of a 1960 German Sauer & Sohns Weatherby .257 Magnum action that had a 24" barrel with a 1-12 twist rate. The barrel is shot out with fire cracking in the throat and although it still shot safely, accuracy suffered. I bought a new .257 Wby and then turned that action into a blue printed 300 Wby project. It out shoots my new 300Wby.
The reason I cut it away was to get a close up view of the fire cracking that I saw on the bore scope. I was expecting to see erosion but that doesn't appear to be present. It's pretty hard to measure that but I tried and that was when my curiosity took another direction. It's sort of like all of the sudden you say to yourself "wait... what the heck?" then you scratch your head a few times and jump on the internet and start looking for answers.
My initial question was carefully thought out. I was trying to find someone that was actually reloading for real Weatherby's and not third party. I wanted to see if they were going by the reloading manuals or if they had an understanding of what Roy Weatherby was doing when he was designing the chambers and then reloading with that in mind. I have asked Weatherby directly but they are in the middle of moving their gunsmithing from Palos Verdes to Sheridan Wyoming so it may be awhile before I hear back.
Thanks for all the responses, keep them coming and maybe we'll get to the bottom of this at some point.
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reynolds357
New member
I have a 30-06 and a 7 Rem Mag in non wby gen 2 Vangards. The 06 shoots about any Spitzer I feed it sub MOA. The 7 Rem mag likes C.T. 150 ballistic tips seated long on top of an over max charge of IMR 4350. Repeatedly shoots groups of 5 at 200 you can cover with a quarter.
reynolds357
New member
In most my weatherby rifles that shoot WBY cartridges, I have gotten best accuracy with no crimp.
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LineStretcher
New member
If you're happy with the way it shoots then keep doing it that way. Nosler recommends crimping on the 300 Wby but I haven't done it. I set neck tension at .001 and call it good. Weatherby roll crimps all of their ammunition. I suspect it may be because they don't want bullets falling out during shipping. I've never had one fall out but I'm not a UPS driver so I may not have the skill set to make that happen.
reynolds357
New member
Most factory ammo is lightly crimped.
LineStretcher
New member
Yep Admin department is already there and the Gunsmithing department and testing is starting to move now. Adam is the Corporate President now. Dang he sure grew up fast. I don't know them but have seen pictures of Adam and his dad (Ed) and his Grandpa Roy. I'm headed over to Flaming Gorge in the Spring for Kokanee fishing and then I'm going to Sheridan if they have the Visitors center open by then.