We had the M1 Garand. What did the Germans have?

R

Rome

New member
In WWII, the M1 Garand became a beloved and revered rifle of our troops. Today it is highly coveted and sought-after.

This may be a ignorant question but did the Germans have a rifle comparable to the M1 that they loved as much? Was it successful. Can you get one today? Is it a semi-auto/auto or bolt?

Any information you can provide to this neophyte long-gun shooter will be greatly appreciated!

Rome
 
The vast majority of the Germans were armed with the pre-20th century design Mauser 98 bolt action rifle. A fine action which is in some sporting form still produced today, the Mauser 98 inspired our own Springfield 1903 rifle and is the equivalent of the British SMLE, Mosin-Nagant rifle, our M1917 Enfield.

The Germans also experimented with and issued semi-automatic rifles during World War II. Among the most successful were the FG-42 (paratrooper rifle which featured a detachable box magazine and full/semi auto fire mode) and in particular, the Stgw 44. The Stgw 44 is especially notable in that it featured a mid-sized caliber cartridge, detachable box magazine, full auto capability (and because of its smaller cartridge, more controllable than the FG-42). While not the first "assault rifle" (that honor goes to the Russian Federov), it certainly influenced post World War II firearms designs.
 
the Germans had two good Rifles like the M1-Garand they wear the Mauser Gewehr-43 and Kerbine-43 in 8mm and they fierd from a 10-round Box mag. and yes the Sturmgewehr-43 and Sturmgewehr-44 the worlds frist Assault Rifles and the Fallschirmjaeger-42 or FG42. the Russian Federov is not the Worlds first Assault Rifle it used a 6.5mm full Rifle Round not a shorter Assault Rifle Round like the German 7.92mm Round. but it is one of the Worlds first Assault Rifle ID.

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Technical Sergeant Andrew Robert Smith
CO LRRP Team
of the Second Ranger Battalion Charlie Company in WW2 Online.
 
According to a recent show on the History Channel, Hitler did not like rifles as an infantry weapon, and pushed very hard for arming infantry with machine guns and submachine guns. A basic unit in the German army was the infantry machinegun squad ten men with one MG-34 large machine gun, supported by rifles and submachine guns. An important weapon of the German infantry was the MP-38 (MP = machine pistol) submachine gun, what G.I.s called the burp gun.
 
The Germans fielded two full-size semi-auto rifles that were comparable to the M 1, the G41 and the G43.

The G41 wasn't very successful. It was heavy, poorly balanced, and had a unique gas trap at the muzzle that caused rapid fouling of the action and, after a few dozen shots, failures.

The G43 was a much more successful design, and was actually kept in production after the war in a number of calibers. I believe the design was given to FN in Belgium, and it provided the basis for the FN 49 semi-auto rifle.

The FG42 was made specifically for paratroops. It was extremely innovative and had a straight-line design in that the bore axis was at the level of the shoulder when the rifle was mounted instead of the bore axis being above the level of the shoulder.

It was, however, extremely complex, time consuming and expensive. Only a few thousand were made.

Unlike the G41 and the G43, the FG42 could fire full and semi-auto.

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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
sigmund, you have it backwards. Hitler did not like SMGs and the such. They had to sneak them past them by calling them Assult Rifles. (yep thats right the name came from them)

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"Knowledge is a destination. Truth, the journey."
 
I'm add to what Sigmund was saying. It's wrong to think in terms of US Infantry tactical doctrine when looking at what the Germans used. A weapon in the same class as the Garand (the FG42) was actually superior to the Garand in numerous ways. It has a straight-line stock, fires from a closed bolt for semiautomatic fire but uses open bolt for automatic fire. Uses a box magazine. Has a muzzle brake. The stock is spring-loaded and slides in recoil so as to be controllable. The bolt system is utilized in the Modern M-60 today.

My point, however, is that German infantry was founded on a completely different concept. The Squad machine-gun is the foundation with the Excellent Mauser serving more to defend and support the machine-guns than as an offensive weapon.

Note that I'm not including the G-41 and G-43 here, but they would be an interesting subject for another thread. They are more Garand like than any other German Weapon.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flaim:
sigmund, you have it backwards. Hitler did not like SMGs and the such. They had to sneak them past them by calling them Assult Rifles. (yep thats right the name came from them)[/quote]

I think Sig had it right here. No, I wasn't there but the stories I've read all suggest that Hitler was against any new rifle designs and was indeed kept out of the loop on the fielding of the Stgw 44. They used Machine Pistol nomenclature to describe the gun. Once fielded, reports made their way to Hitler about the success of a 'new rifle.' Always unpredictable, Hitler was overjoyed by the success of the new gun and dubbed it the "Assault Rifle."


[This message has been edited by badgerarms (edited November 09, 2000).]
 
Ahh, the FG42, that was a neat idea. Keep in mind that there where only a few thousand made, but what a gun it could have been if they had had more time to improve on it.

Think about it for a second. It did the same thing as our own select fire M14 was supposed to do, only better, and a decade earlier.

Col. George Chin (the MAN when it comes to machine guns) said that he thought it was one of the best guns ever.
 
I am confused. The FG.42, while called a rifle, was a light machinegun, more in line with the BAR than with the M1 rifle. It was intended for use by paratroops who found the standard MG.34 and MG.42 too heavy and bulky. The K.98k was truly (as the book title says) the "Backbone of the Wehrmacht".

The Germans developed rifles like the G.43 more for morale and propaganda purposes than for any actual need. (Incidentally, the G.43 and K.43 seem to be identical, and there is an ongoing discussion among German military collectors as to the differences, if any.)

There were two G.41's, the G.41M by Mauser, which never got beyond the trials stage, and the G.41W, by Walther, which was issued in considerable quantity and was the predecessor of the Walther-developed G.43.

The FN Model 49 owes nothing to the G.43; it is an entirely different rifle and functions differently. In fact, the design, by Saive, antedates the G.43 and any inspiration may have been the other way around.

The Sturmgewehr rifles did not come on stream until late 1943 and, while liked(especially on the Ostfront), never came any where near supplanting the K.98k. They were considered efficient and useful, but too heavy.

The MP.38 and MP.40 were fine SMG's, although expensive to make (compared with the British STEN and the U.S. M3), and needlessly complex. They did not, and never were intended to, supplant the infantry rifle. The SMGs were found deficient on the Eastern front because the 9mm bullets would not penetrate heavy Russian winter clothing and have any stopping power left. That was the main reason for development of the StG. rifle and cartridge (7.9 Kurz), to replace the machine pistols, not to replace the K.98k.

Jim




[This message has been edited by Jim Keenan (edited November 09, 2000).]
 
question,,,,was any of these designs ever called the "kurtz carbiner"...i had been under the impression that was the first assault rifle and the forerunneer of the ak...fubsy.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flaim:
sigmund, you have it backwards. Hitler did not like SMGs and the such. They had to sneak them past them by calling them Assult Rifles. (yep thats right the name came from them)

[/quote]

Flaim,

Sorry, but you have it backwards.

Around 1942 Hitler ordered no new development work on rifles, other than what was already going on.

His design staff had seen the concept for the MP43/Stgw44, but Hitler's edict would have killed it.

Going out on a limb, they authorized work to proceed, but under the name Machine Pistol 1943, making it appear that it was an updated MP40.

Hitler found out about the project while speaking with some of his field commanders from the Eastern Front, where the MP43 had been shipped for trials.

He asked "what do you need," to which they replied, "More of these new rifles."

At that point the cat was out of the bag. Hitler then reviewed the project, listened to his commanders, and based on what he saw and heard, he greenlighted the project as highest priority.

Some accounts also say that he coined the name Sturmgewher (Assault Rifle).



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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fubsy:
question,,,,was any of these designs ever called the "kurtz carbiner"...i had been under the impression that was the first assault rifle and the forerunneer of the ak...fubsy.[/quote]

Fubsy,

It's actually KURZ, there's no T. Kurz means short in German, and was used to describe the cartridge fired in the MP43/Stgw44.


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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
Jim,

You're right, the G43 was not picked up as the FN49. My bad.

As for the FG42, its initial design concept was to replace all other weapons, bolt-action rifles, machine guns, and submachine guns, in the German paratroop divisions.

Had it become general issue to the paratroops, its role would not have been the same as the BAR (squad support), but as the primary unit weapon.

By the time the rifle was ready for issue, though, the role of its intended users had pretty much been eliminated.

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Smith & Wesson is dead to me.

If you want a Smith & Wesson, buy USED!
 
Opps I stand corrected. Sory for the confusion. I was trying to remember that "Tales of the Gun" and got it mixed up :) Must sleep... Sleep good.

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"Knowledge is a destination. Truth, the journey."
 
As usual the help here is tremendous. Thanks, everyone, for the education.

It was easy to assume that the Germans had adopted the same military stance as us and, therefore, would have a comparable weapon. Now that you've all explained that the Germans took a different approach, it all makes sense. Old movies always shows a preponderance for machine guns and sub machine guns on the German lines. This was a detail which really didn't impact me until now. It also amazes me that the old Mausers were still in use. Sure, I realize it is a reliable weapon but so slow with a bolt.

I'm going to use the info here to do a little research on the FG and G weapons just for my own edification. Thanks!

Rome
 
Rome:

It is NOT surprising that the Germans retained the bolt-action rifle during WWII. German manufacturing industry was limited in capacity during the inter-war period. Because it was so heavily involved in new projects (aircraft, tanks, etc.), it could not divert resources to design and mass-manufacture new rifles.

Britain, Italy and Japan (along with Germany) all relied on bolt-action rifles throughout most of WWII.

The United States was unique among the Great Powers in arming its infantry with a semi-automatic rifle in large quantities.

I should add, by the way, that the Germans loved the M1 Carbine and used as many as they could capture, especially after the Second Ardennes offensive (Bulge) when they had captured enough ammunition for it.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu
 
Hi, guys,

Very rarely has the infantry rifle actually made much difference in winning or losing a war. Probably the last time that occurred was in the Austro-Prussian war when the Prussian "needle gun" outclassed the Austrian muzzle loaders. Even then, the poor discipline and training of the Austrians and the high quality of both on the Prussian side meant much more than the difference in equipment.

In WWII, there was never any situation where the American use of the M1 actually won a battle. There is no question that the M1 is superior to the K.98k, but German machineguns were superior to ours.

The war was won in the West by American mass production of ships, tanks and airplanes. In the East, the Russians fielded superior tanks in large numbers and also gained air superiority towards the end. Russian manpower played a large role, but the Russian semi-auto rifles were inefficient and issued only in limited numbers.

Jim
 
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