We don't need the Second Ammendment

BTR

New member
The Tenth Amendment states: "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

This means that, unless the Constitution says that the Federal Government can pass laws about a subject, Congress is forbidden from legislating on the subject. Absolutely nothing in the constitution logically gives the Federal government the right to determine what kind of weapons may be owned, who may own these weapons, how these weapons may be modified, and how these weapons can be acquired in state. I have concluded that most federal gun laws are invalid, not necessarily by the Second Amendment (for example, I think one can lose the right to own guns by his or her actions) but by the Tenth- since Congress has no authority to pass laws such as these. We don't need the Second Amendment to prohibit stupid gun laws, we only need to demonstrate that these laws are not within the power of the federal government.

Even if these some of these laws may be good or helpful, that only means they should be enacted by the states, and not by the Federal Government. That is why I am uncertain about Project Exile- the results may be good, but the law behind it violates the Tenth Amendment.

It is my understanding that most federal gun laws enacted are presumed to be allowed under the Commerce Clause of the Constitution, allowing congress to regulate interstate commerce. The theory is, when an item like a gun or bullet is made in one state and sold in another, Congress can pass whatever laws they wish about the item for eternity. However, I would be willing to bet that even if the gun and bullets were made in your state, and never left, these laws would still be considered valid regarding the gun.

When congress prohibits you from turning your rifle to full auto in your basement, are they regulating "interstate commerce" or are they regulating your gun? When congress says a 12 year old can't get a handgun as a gift, how can they pretend they are regulating "commerce" and not guns? Since when does the INTERstate commerce clause allow congress to regulate gun purchases INTRAstate?

It's a lot easier to pull out a copy of the Constitution and ask the gun grabber to show where Congress has the power to enact X law, than it is to argue the militia, quotes, abstract theory, and the amount and effectiveness of self defense. You don't have to even prove X law is bad, and even if it saved lives, it wouldn't matter from a constitutional point of view. It might then be a matter for the state government, but not the federal one.

I suggest you read this rather long piece about this issue, as it formed my views on this matter:
http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-216.html

It concerns the "Gun Free Schools Act" and was written before the Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional under the Tenth Amendment. Of course, the same act was re-enacted, this time with the provision that the "gun and ammunition move in, or substantially effect, interstate commerce." So, the historic Supreme Court decision was nullified by the insertion of a meaningless phrase. Consider everyone's favorite case, "Emerson." Reading the judge's much lauded decision, I noticed that he completely dismissed the Tenth Amendment argument in a couple of sentences. Odd, because a Tenth Amendment argument is even easier to prove than a Second Amendment one. His decision further helped legitimize the unconstitutional laws we have on the books already.

These instances lead me to believe that the Tenth Amendment will never be taken seriously. After all, who knows how many thousands and thousands of laws and programs would have to be eliminated if the Amendment was obeyed? Welfare...don't see that in the Constitution, Social Security, drugs, education and who knows what all.

If the Tenth Amendment was obeyed, the only laws we would have to worry about would be state ones, and quite a lot of us would be in good shape. Is there any flaws in my argument, or perspectives on this issue?
 
You like the Tenth? You ought to take a look at the Ninth. It basically makes you a sovereign citizen.

You are absolutely correct in your reasoning. That and and buck and a half gets you a cup of coffee and a doughnut most anywhere in the country.

Not to be facetious, but its a question of brute force. Income taxes are quite unConstitutional on many levels, but you don't see a lot of people refusing to pay them. And for good reason. Those IRS agents will take whatever you've got including your birthday. And they'll make it absolutely impossible to earn a living in the future, essentially destroying your life. The rightness or wrongness of your position is completely irrelevant. By the time that's worked out your kids will be burying you.

They just make it more trouble than its worth to stop complying and we all just sort of buy into the whole thing. Ever wonder why tax cases are not taken to a civil court and a jury of your peers and all that nonsense are not adhered to? When and where did we get a seperate court system for the IRS? Why do so few question it and when they do, are immediately labeled "extremist?"

We live under perhaps the most subtle form of tyranny ever devised. The kind where you and I and a good chunk of the population KNOWS that the fed.gov is illegal, illegitimate and operating completely outside the Constitution. They just make it too much trouble to bother with. A few of us will drop off the radar screen, a few of us will bitch and moan and once in a while some misguided, frustrated sap will blow something up thinking he's doing something but all in all we're sittin' here and takin' it and likin' it.

We sometimes go off and say "boy, that day will come and you'll see, they'll knock on my door to take my guns and I'll show them, boy." Hogwash. "They" won't come to take anything, they don't need to as they've already got it.

Think I'm kidding? Ask yourself this, who determines how much money you make? What happens if you earn more, say by working ten percent overtime? Do you automatically come home with ten percent more money? No? What happened to that extra time and effort you put in? Why didn't the reward follow in this supposedly free country? Who's in control, really?

God forbid you really start achieving through luck or ingenuity or some combination thereof. Then you become one of the evil rich, living off the backs of the poor (never mind you'll probably employ 50+ people should you become a millionare) and are in need of extra punishment. That's when the IRS puts you in special tax brackets and you incorporate and file taxes quarterly. And Jesus help you if you should fail to comply with one of those laws buried in that 3,000 page tax code. You don't know what trouble is until that day.

So you've got a gun and maybe a crate of ammo socked away somewhere. Somebody in the highest levels of fed.gov is laughing their ass off at you and me and the rest of us right now. We're a running joke and they know it. Not many are gonna holler too loud should they come to take your gun (which they don't have to do anyway). If you were gonna put up a fight it would have been long ago. The few that will make problems will be easily demonized and the sheep will bleat for protection from themselves. Basically a mop-up job. They've got a Horiuchi or two on the payroll for those operations.

Sorry, this didn't start out as a rant. I'm just feeling particularly frustrated and impotent lately. Would men (or women) with half the integrity and steel of Washington and Jefferson and Madison put up with this crap? Can you imagine transporting ("Give me Liberty or Give me Death!") Patrick Henry 230 years into the future and telling him to pay 25% of his paycheck to fed.gov because "we say so"? I can't.

And no, I haven't got the answers either. But making these perfectly logical, factual and relevant Constitutional arguments is getting to be an exercise in futility. You're right on every detail of your post, but its absolutely meaningless. It will be the tragedy of our age to watch the last vestiges of freedom die in this country without so much as an interruption of Oprah.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jack 99:
So you've got a gun and maybe a crate of ammo socked away somewhere. Somebody in the highest levels of fed.gov is laughing their ass off at you and me and the rest of us right now. We're a running joke and they know it. Not many are gonna holler too loud should they come to take your gun (which they don't have to do anyway). If you were gonna put up a fight it would have been long ago.[/quote]

How right you are, Jack. Thanks for a great post.

Here's a clue for all you Rush/NRA/Bush fans:

Yes, the government already owns and/or controls your bank account, your job and/or business, your property, your means of transportation, and your children and can take them all away at will.

No, if you think this will all get better if you only keep listening to Rush, voting for Bush and sending another check to the NRA, then you are woefully mistaken, my friends.

What makes many of you Sunshine patriots think you are going to stop them with all your ATF form 4473 registered firearms and your government granted CCW permits, instead of your God-granted Second Amendment rights?


Baloney!

Free *and* packing in the PRK, Vermont style.

RKBA Forever!
 
BTR, you are exactly right. Congress is claiming that they are regulating commerce not regulating guns. Still, someone here might be able to check me on this one, I believe that no one has been convicted yet on the absurd rewrite of the law the Lopez decision struck down. I did hear that someone has plea bargained on a charge since the Lopez decision though.

Funny how sometimes, say the Roe decision, politicians claim that they can't prosecute someone, yet in the Lopez decision the politicians claim that a SC decision is no impediment to enforcing the exact same law with a few extra words tossed in.

While there's no question judges have invented law from the bench, there is a bit of dishonesty on the part of "so-called" Conservatives that this forces them to do something. As we've seen with the Lopez decision Congress told the SC to take a walk.

Still, the NRA look like a bunch of idiots advocating enforcement of a law the SC has already expunged.
 
I agree with what you have said here, but I would also like to note that the constitution can be changed, and we cannot sit back and rest on the second ammendment. We need to fight tooth and nail to ensure this situation reverses. The ATF must go, and the commerce bs must go.

The states need to get some spine too.
 
Back
Top