We Don't Need No Steenking Second Amendment!!

It was a good article. HOWEVER, the George Washington quote about "the rifle and pistol" being equally indespensible is fake. As is the quote of Thomas Jefferson saying the most important reason to own arms is to protect against tyranny. Not that they might not have held these opinions, but these two quotes are fabrications.
 
Thanks Frank, great article. Sounds like the writer sort of admired the ancient Greek dialogues, doesn't it? Does this remind anyone else of those dialogues where some numbskull would drag a reluctant Socrates into a discussion on, say, virtue--and then Socrates would wipe the floor with them.

BTR, thanks to you too. When I post this on my website I'll add your warning about the quotes.

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Don

"Its not criminals that go into schools and shoot children"
--Ann Pearston, British Gun Control apologist and moron
 
Man! Am I disappointed that those quotes are supposed to be fake. Are you absolutly sure about that? Seems I heard these quotes were found in the letters of the founders. Seems I remember somewhere on another board that a constitutional scholar verified the quotes. I've had a long list of quotes from the founders for over 15 years and most of these quotes were on that list. Where did you get your information from? Or are they in fact REAL quotes?
 
Here you go. Great reading!

Real pro-gun quotes: http://www.saf.org/FoundingFathersQuotes.html

Hitler gun registration quote debunking: http://www.urbanlegends.com/politics/hitler_gun_control.html

Fake Anti-gun quotes: http://www.saf.org/BogusQuotesAntiGunners.html

Fake pro-gun quotes: http://www.saf.org/BogusQuotesFounders.html

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George Washington

Perhaps the most 'infamous' bogus saying attributed to a Founding Father is the 'liberty teeth' quote alleged to have been said by George Washington. One version of this tale reads: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the plow, the prairie wagon, and firearms are indelibly related. From the moment the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 99/100 percent of them by their silence indicate they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil interference; they deserve a place of honor with all that's good. When firearms, go all goes; we need them every hour.

This has several variations including "hour" for "moment" and sometimes added as part of an actual Washington quote "A free people ought not only to be armed…" The various citations are even more
numerous than different wordings: Address to the Second Session of the First U.S. Congress; Speech to
Congress of January 7, 1790, printed in the Boston Independent Chronicle, January 14, 1790; The
Federalist No. 53; Debates and Proceedings in the Convention of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts,
1785.

The problems with this quote are many. (1) Prairie wagons were not being utilized and the prairies were
uninhabited by European settlers at the time. (2) The percentage use and other modern English phrases such as "safe and sane" are suspicious and atypical for the time period. (3) The bold proclamation of needing firearms is odd since nobody was considering gun control against law-abiding people at the time. (4) Too many convenient topics are covered in one passage.

Despite all these problems, could parts of this quote be true? Maybe. But until it can be properly documented, stick to the many proven pro-gun quotes from George Washington and other Founding Fathers.

Another questionable statement attributed to George Washington reads as follows:

Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a
fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.

While this quote is often attributed to George Washington in his Farewell Address, this quote cannot be
found there. Many people have tried to verify its origin, but cannot confirm its authenticity.

Dan Gifford tried to track this quote down but was unsuccessful for his article. See: "The Conceptual
Foundations of Anglo-American Jurisprudence in Religion and Reason", The Tennessee Law Review: A
Second Amendment Symposium Issue, Page 801, footnote 201. This issue of the Tennessee Law Review
is part of the SAF bookshelf.

Perhaps the American Freedom Library available from Laissez Faire Books features the best history of this alleged quote on their Version 3.1 CD-ROM. The searchable CD-ROM notes that the above
statement is:

"Attributed to George Washington.-Frank J. Wilstach, A Dictionary of Similes, 2d ed., p.
526 (1924). This can be found with minor variations in wording and in punctuation, and with
'fearful' for 'troublesome,' in George Seldes, The Great Quotations, p. 727 (1966).
Unverified. In his most recent book of quotations, The Great Thoughts (1985), Seldes Says,
p. 441, col. 2, footnote, this paragraph 'although credited to the 'Farewell' [address] cannot
be found in it. Lawson Hamblin, who owns a facsimile, and Horace Peck, America's foremost
authority on quotations, informed me this paragraph is apocryphal [fake].'"

Thomas Jefferson

Thomas Jefferson has many confirmed quotes on our website. Why anyone felt it necessary to make up a
quote is ludicrous. Maybe an anti-gunner did it to discredit all the real quotes.

The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

Occasionally this phony quote attributed to Thomas Jefferson is given with the following citation: Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 (C.J.Boyd, Ed., 1950). The publication exists, but the quote does not. And the editor's correct name is Julian P. Boyd, not C.J. Boyd. In other cases, this quote is added to the end of a proven Jefferson quote "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms…" Thomas Jefferson, Proposed Virginia Constitution, 1776, Jefferson Papers 344.


James Madison

The drafter of the Second Amendment needs no help in stating his intent, yet a rare, false statement is
sometimes attributed to him. This false quote appears as follows:

"The right of the citizens to bear arms in defense of themselves and the state shall not be questioned."

So far, this quote has not been seen with a citation or reference of any kind. In searching for these
questionable 'quotes', neither this Madison 'quote' nor the Jefferson 'quote' have not been found in their
speeches, personal correspondences, or diaries. Nor have either of these statements ever been cited to our
knowledge by any respected Second Amendment scholars.
 
OOHH! OK, I get it now! The founders did say, basically, the quotes mentioned but they have been reworded slightly as they have passed from hand to hand. Kind of like telling a story to someone who then tells someone else and then when it gets back around to you it is slightly altered. It's good to know that the basic meaning hasn't been altered.........THAT WE DO INDEED HAVE THE RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS!
 
Yes of course that's what they meant, but a few of these "quotes" have been made up out of thin air. Like the George Washington quote, or the Hitler gun registration quote. Now, Washington was a gun fan, with a big gun collection, and I believe there are legtimate pro-gun quotes from him, but this quote only discredits those that use it. Likewise with Thomas Jefferson- there's no doubt he's on our side, but bogus quotes hurt our cause. The same case with Hitler- he disarmed the populence of invaded coutries (as for his own, I'm not certain) so he's a practicioner of "gun control" but the registration quote is compeltely fake.
 
I knew the hitler quote to be false. I've seen a number of quotes from the founding fathers that were corrupted.......like the one about "prairie schooners" even though they didn't have them at the time the quotes were attributed.

Almost seems like we got some people purposly mis-quoting the founders to lessen the credibility of what they had to say so that you could destroy any meaningfull discussion or debate on the subject.

I'm glad to hear that the basic meaning or "jist" of what the founders said hasn't been corrupted.

I especially like the "Natural Rights" part of the article.
 
Below is a package of quotes I've had for about 15 years.....before the internet was even around. Can anyone tell me which ones are fake or are these the ORIGINAL quotes that have been altered in an attempt to discredit second amendment arguments?

Here goes...............

"And that the said constitution be never construed to authorize congress...to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms.."-Philadelphia Gazetteer, Aug 20 1789

"I entirely concur in the propriety of restoring to the sense in which the Constitution was accepted and ratified by the nation. In that sense alone it is a legitimate constitution. And, if that be not the guide in expounding it, there can be no security for consistent and stable government." - James Madison

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American peoples liberty teeth and keystone under independence...From the hour the pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable...The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference-they deserve a place of honor with all that is good." - George Washington

"On every question of construction (of the constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit of the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable one in which it was passed." - Thomas Jefferson

"The constitution shall never be construed...to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms."-Alexander Hamilton

"The whole of the Bill (of rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large and considered as individuals....It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has the right to deprive them of."
Albert Gallatin of the New York Historical Society Oct. 7, 1789

"arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defence." - John Adams

"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun."
- Patrick Henry

"No free man shall ever be disbarred the use of arms." - Thomas Jefferson


"The best that we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." - Alexander Hamilton

"Americans have the right and advantage of being armed - unlike the citizens of other countries whose governments are afraid to trust the people with arms."
- James Madison

"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The constitution of most of the states (and of the United States) assert that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed and that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press."
- Thomas Jefferson

"Last Monday a string of amendments were presented to the lower house; these altogether respect personal liberty..."
Sen. William Greyson of Virginia in a letter to Patrick Henry

"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom of europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops...."
- Noah Webster

"As civil rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as the military forces which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the next article in their right to keep and bear their private arms." - Tench Cox in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution"

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms has been recognized by the general government; but the best security of that right is... the military spirit, which has always distinguished the free citizens of these States....Such men form the best barrier to the Liberties of America."
Gazette of the United States, Oct. 14, 1789
 
Thanks Frank and BTR for those articles and websites. I have them bookmarked now and plan to use them.

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"A knifeless man is a lifeless man"
-Nordic proverb
 
Wow great thread, and a great article however I have to admit that I was a tad bit dissappointed to see that George Washington Quote in there. I have seen it on other sites which labeled it bogus as well. I have to agree that it tends to detract from the credibility of the real provable quotes. thanks though! P.S. Here is a great site that has a wealth of info on it! Including good quotes and a list of misquotes. GunTruths.com

BEAR.GIF


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...“ They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” --Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759.
Take care and God Bless, El Jefe


[This message has been edited by El Jefe (edited November 20, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by El Jefe (edited November 20, 1999).]
 
Yes, Hitler actual liberalised the German gun laws which were quite Draconian under the Weimar Republic. Guns were registered,but it was not hard for the average German to have a weapon. Many of the guns the GI's brought back from germany wee taken from german civilians:common people. also Hilter didnt disarm occupied countries. Many people in occupied countries were allowed to own firearms. The Milice in France and the security batallions in Greece were heavily armed and did most the fighting against communist guerrillas in their respective countries. The police(non German) in these countries were all armed. When the Greek Army surrendered to the Germans in 1941, they were allowed to take their firearms and go home. If you want to find anti gun phlosophy, go to the communists. Lenin and Stalin made it quite clear how they felt about private gun ownership. And it is our communist leaning politicians in this country and in the Un who are the driving force for world wide gun confiscation. We can blame Hitler and the Nazis for a lot of things,but gun control as the communists in this country want was not his priority. When ever the reds moved into a country ,they would seize All weapons, from knives on up. These anti gun politicians who fill our Congress and white house are pure Stalinists as far as i am concerned. When it came to gun control, Hitler was in the minors compared to the heavy hitting commies of yesterday and TODAY. And if those long dead white boys came back(Founders) today, you can bet they would have some good Quotes about the state of the nation and the commie politicos running it. Yes, why mince words. If you are for gun control you are following one of the ten planks of the communist manifesto. That makes you a commie in my book!
 
Jefe...

My baby is going nuts over the bear...he loves it!

He growls LOL

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"Quis custodiet ipsos custodes" RKBA!
 
Ivan, Hitler did indeed disarm some of the countries he captured. The NRA page has a section on it, complete with a photo of a Nazi sign in, I think, french, ordering all civilians to turn in their arms within 24 under penalty of death. Also, an authentic quote by Hitler goes something like "The most foolish thing we could do is leave our conquered people their arms.." (bad paraphrase).


Frank, these two of your quotes are fake:

Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American peoples liberty teeth and keystone under independence...From the hour the pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to ensure peace, security, and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable...The very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference-they deserve a place of honor with all that is good."

- George Washington


The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves
against tyranny in government."

- Thomas Jefferson

I recognized a lot of your quotes as reputable ones, esp. the Tench Cox and the Patrick Henry ones. Some I have not seen before.

[This message has been edited by BTR (edited November 22, 1999).]
 
Btr, if Hitler made that statement, he probabably forgot about it as he did with much of what he said. Unlike Stalin, who keep abrest of everything going on, Hitler often lapsed into off the wall subjects while the war was waging around him and his generals were ignored. Fortunately for the Allies! Sure, there were gun confiscations by the Germans. But there were many armed non Germans in German occupied Europe. These men fought Communist guerillas in their own countries like France and Greece and unfortunately,especially in france, suffered greatly when De Gaulle came back in 1944. But the British rearmed the pro German and anticommunist Security Batallions in Greece when the Communist tried to seize power in Greece after the British landed. Read "Herakles and the Swastika,Greek Voluteers in the German Army, Police and SS 1943-1945" by Antonio Munoz. In Greece besides the Security Battalions and Evzone Battalions(Greek mountain troops) formed by the Germans, there were village militias formed from Greek civilians. I have a picture of a militiaman in Thessaly with his rifle and bandolier. He has a armband that has the Greek flag and a Swastika next to it! These militias were made up of farmers mainly and were staunchly anti Communist. there were more armed Greeks fighting with the Germans against their commie guerillas than there were Greek guerillas fighting the Germans. And it was the Greek collaborationists themselves who did most of the fighting and dying against the Greek communist guerillas! A report given to Himmler shows that between Septembwer 1943 and September 1944 the Greek axis formations lost 2200 men and the Germans only 378! The fact is that common people and regular former Greek military and police were armed by the Germans in large numbers. And this was common in othere occupied countries as well. No, this doesnt make the Nazis 's paragons of the second amendment,but it doesnt put them in the catagory of the communists who often "get a free ride in the western press".
 
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