Watch...wallet...gun drill.

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SaxonPig

New member
I am not a great marksman. Never was and as I have aged and my eyesight deteriorated my shooting skills have also degraded. That's OK, I don't hunt and I don't shoot competitively so I don't need pinpoint accuracy. The only serious shooting I may ever have to do is in a self defense situation and I think at close range on a man sized target I do well enough.

Shot a couple revolvers today in my "Watch...wallet...gun" drill that is meant to simulate engaging an armed threat at close range. It's only 15 feet, but it's unloading the revolver as fast as possible in DA mode. The pistol was a 1924 Colt Army Special in 38 Special. The load was a 158 grain lead round nose at 850 FPS (How's THAT for old school?). That's probably the load this gun is most familiar with being an ex cop gun.

Anyway...probably good enough (measures 2.5").


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I still practice with vintage guns as well... though I have to admit I have a 380 bottom feeder on the belt today :o

one thing I started doing long ago, was carrying my wallet in my front pocket, rather than rear, ( probably from fear of pick pockets, back when I used to foreman a work crew & carried large amounts of cash ) but I don't like sitting on the wallet anyway...

so my reach for my rear wallet pocket goes right across my handgun... if I choose not to draw ( like if I'm at close range, & already staring down a barrel ) I can just go oops, & show them it's in my front pocket "I forgot"
 
SaxonPig,

Nothing wrong with the shooting, but I want to challenge your mindset just a little. You wrote:

SaxonPig said:
I don't hunt and I don't shoot competitively so I don't need pinpoint accuracy. The only serious shooting I may ever have to do is in a self defense situation and I think at close range on a man sized target I do well enough.
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So ... getting this straight, you're not wagering anything important, like a couple of meals or bragging rights, on your shooting ability. Just your life. So a high level of skill really isn't important.

Can't say I agree with that kind of thinking, myself.

pax
 
I said pinpoint accuracy isn't necessary for SD and it isn't. A combination of speed with "acceptable" accuracy is wanted. Six rounds rapid fire in the kill zone at 25 feet is more desirable than a clover leaf in slow fire at 50 yards. The latter displays your skill at a shooting game...the former is all you need to stay alive.
 
Good on ya, Saxon: Combat accuracy at combat speed. Too often, people are satisfied with the former without the latter, which is simply just poor shooting, so in that regard, I agree with Pax. ;)
 
Can't say I agree with that kind of thinking, myself.
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I have to agree with Pax on this. While I don't get out to the pistol range like I use to, this weekend to the rifle range. She's right even at our age (Mine 70yrs) we need to keep up our shooting skills.

While not a too bad a group, at 15 feet I feel you can do better. Instead of as fast as you can, you should do timed fire, say one shot ever 1 second while counting 1 thousand and 1, 1 thousand and 2, etc... Once all 5 or 6 shots are in the ten ring then you can start counting faster and faster until you can nail the 10 ring just shooting as fast as you can.

Good luck and stay safe and healthy.
Jim
 
All shots in the kill zone as fast as you can pull the trigger. That sounds good to me.

Timed fire X-rings are a different skill set, and pretty useless at bad-breath distance.

Practice both.

(I like the Denny Crane reference ;) )
 
Timed fire X-rings are a different skill set, and pretty useless at bad-breath distance.
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If you can do timed fire x-ring, then bad-breath distance will be no problem.

A hit is better than a miss and a kill shot is better than just wounding someone. The heart is a very small target at 15 feet, so why get yourself killed because you can not deliver a kill shot. Gun fights usually require both people shooting at the same time. Take a cut-out of the heart and put it on a bulls-eye target at 15 feet and see how well you can do OR NOT (LOL). Wounding someone in a SD gun fight will get you killed. If your pointing a gun at me, I am going for a head shot. Except for a single shot in the bulls-eye the rest of his shots would not have killed anyone, yes they may have bleed out, but that would have been way to late to save himself. So save the BS for the bar room and your buddies.

Jim
 
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A revolver, highly unlikely. Might get his hand burnt. (LOL) That's why I like a 3 inch barrel.

Jim

 
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One would think that someone who can take out the X ring at 50 yards would be even better up close...but not necessarily. I shot in a pseudo combat league for a while and every once in a while the organizers would throw in an extremely close target. It was amazing how many experienced, excellent shooters would completely blow a target at 5 feet. Shooting that close was out of their comfort zone. They didn't practice for it and it confused them.

I recall many years ago a news story about an armed robber and an armed store clerk who emptied their revolvers at each at a distance the police later estimated to be 3 feet. Neither man was hit.

Ever seen a major league pitcher throw the ball over the first baseman's head in a pick off attempt? He isn't accustomed to throwing over there.

As for slowing down, that ain't gonna happen in the real world. I guarantee you that if are scared enough to pull the trigger on a guy you will pull it as fast as you can and keep pulling it. That is the point of the exercise I described. Bring the pistol up and unload it fast.
 
There is no doubt that multiple hits are better than a single hit. I just do not agree with firing in a panic state as fast as you can. There are too many chances that your bullets will go astray and hit a bystander instead of your target. I have seen that too many times with poorly trained CCW holders trying to stop a hold up. You need to take a breath and ID your target before you pull that trigger and do it under controlled conditions.

Once the bullet leaves the barrel, you can not take it back. If you accidentally hit someone's 9 year old little girl by mistake because of rapid fire, it will change your life forever.

Jim
 
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SaxonPig said:
I shot in a pseudo combat league for a while and every once in a while the organizers would throw in an extremely close target. It was amazing how many experienced, excellent shooters would completely blow a target at 5 feet. Shooting that close was out of their comfort zone. They didn't practice for it and it confused them.
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I see these in matches all the time with similar results. It ain't a comfort zone thing or confusion, though - it's overconfidence. Shooters often see them as "can't miss gimme" targets and pull the trigger as fast as they can, only to find that at 5 feet, they can miss when they simply pull the trigger as fast as they can. They're "sucker" targets put there by the stage designer for that very reason. You'll often find them followed by long hard targets, as the stage designer figures whoever hoses the close targets won't apply enough brake for the longer targets. It's a classic double whammy trap.
 
" I just do not agree with firing in a panic state as fast as you can. "

Um...where did I say I was in a panic state? I'm saying that once you pull the trigger on a live target I doubt you will stop and assess the situation after one shot. Well maybe if the target immediately goes down, but that's unlikely to happen. I imagine that in the vast majority of cases multiple rounds are fired. In fact I recall reading (maybe Ayoob) about police being surprised when they learned they fired 5 rounds instead of the 2 they thought they fired.

As for hitting bystanders, always a concern, but note that the purpose of this practice was shoot fast and shoot straight. I had a 2.5" group. Hardly seems like spraying bullets all over the place as you suggest was happening.

I am really surprised at the debate. Had no idea guys would want to argue against practicing shooting fast at targets up close. Oh well...goes to show that no matter WHAT I post I get arguments.
 
SaxonPig,

Please forgive me -- I didn't mean to derail your thread. Again, there was nothing wrong with your shooting; my only challenge for you was the mindset that says you won't ever need to be "pinpoint accurate" as long as your only purpose is self defense.

Tom Givens tells the story (on his excellent DVD, Lessons from the Street) of one of his 60-something students who've been involved in a shooting. This particular student was upstairs in her home when she heard her husband's car pull into the driveway.

A moment later, she heard yelling ... then the chilling sound of shots being fired.

She looked out an upstairs window to see two men attacking her husband. One of them had just shot her husband in the leg, and was preparing to shoot him in the head.

She quickly drew her own firearm, and at a (later measured) distance of more than 15 yards, and with her husband closely entangled with the bad guys, she shot and killed the primary attacker. The other attacker ran off, and her husband did survive.

Pinpoint accuracy at distance, with speed.

pax
 
Saxonpig: You are pretty darned smart.
15 feet or less is good practice in real life situations that could happen.
Sure is much better than shooting up cars and blowing holes in your own windshield.:eek:
Realism is realism.
 
She quickly drew her own firearm, and at a (later measured) distance of more than 15 yards, and with her husband closely entangled with the bad guys, she shot and killed the primary attacker. The other attacker ran off, and her husband did survive.

Pinpoint accuracy at distance, with speed.
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I'm not seeing how that proves "pinpoint accuracy"
You don't know where she hit, nor where she aimed

Reality is a quick COM hit is all you need in a self defense situation

Anecdotal evidence rarely "proves" anything at all
 
I agree with "the Pig" 100%. I can shoot like he says "clover leaf" groups (well kinda big clover leafs) with all my wheel guns, some days they are smaller than others. In the 25 yard "self defense rapid fire technique" I am a failure. In that case I hope my son is there with his Glock 22.

He's gooooood! I hafta reload shells for him, but he's goooood.

RJ
 
As for slowing down, that ain't gonna happen in the real world. I guarantee you that if are scared enough to pull the trigger on a guy you will pull it as fast as you can and keep pulling it. That is the point of the exercise I described. Bring the pistol up and unload it fast.
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Pull the trigger as fast as you can hit the target. That gives you a several things you can work on when you practice. (speed, distance, size-of-target)

ETA: also maybe try different shaped targets instead of bullseyes all the time.
 
Long SD shots are rare and almost always in defense of others. They do happen. I have often heard the average shooting occurs at 7 yards. Sounds right to me.

My longest shot on a human target was about 30 yards. My closest was about two feet (in the same encounter). You never know for sure what will happen but anything can happen.

It's simply physically impossible for me to be a crack pistol shot at long range. I practice to be the best I can. I think an armed criminal within about 40 feet of me is in serious danger of taking multiple hits in the kill zone. Beyond that range...um, not so much. More likely arms and legs get nailed.
 
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