Wars and Rumors of Wars

Jeff White

New member
The various threads on revolution and frustration with the "High Road" position at TFL has gotten me thinking.

I'd like to pose a few questions to the members who are frustarted with the "high Road" and then add some of my comments.

1. Are those of you who are advocating revolution (or at least serious discussion of it) ready to give up your reputation, your family's reputation, your earning potential, your freedom and ultimately your life? Right now, today? Our founding fathers did. Are you ready for almost everyone to brand you as a terrorist and a criminal?

2. Are you ready to live as a fugitive, moving from safe house to safe house, always in fear of betrayal, arrest and imprisonment?

3. Have you ever been in a country where this type of activity is going on?

4. Have you ever been in combat?

5. Are you ready to go to prison for your beliefs? Tomorrow? For maybe the next 20 years until your side finally wins? What if you don't prevail?

6. Are you prepared to deal with people who are your ideological enemies to defeat the common enemy and then fight it out with them?

7. How many who are ready to shoot now have been involved in the political process? Registered to vote and never miss an election? Recruited like minded people to run or ran for office themselves?

Now for my comments: By many accepted definitions the revolution has already begun. There are groups on the right and the left preparing to achieve their political goals by violent means. Look at the history of our own revolution against the British. The colonists were divided into thirds. 1/3 Tories, 1/3 Patriots (criminals and terrorists to the other 2/3s) and 1/3 just wanted to be left alone. How many years did it take? Did unconventional warfare win the day? No the Continental Army finally started winning on the battlefield in conventional conflict. The Brown Bess musket won the revolution, not the Kentucky Long Rifle.

A revolution would be a bloody hard thing, probably not at all like "Unintended Consequences". Probably more like the communist struggle for Vietnam, 1946-1975. Beginning with leaders and patriots inprisoned and killed and ending with tanks rolling through the gates of Saigon.

I am as frustrated as anyone on TFL about the way things are going right now. But I don't think we're nearly to the point of reinstalling a constitutional government by force. We've yet to exhaust all other options. We've lost a lot in the legislature and to pop culture, but we are just beginning to fight in the courts. Emerson has yet to be heard in the Federal Court of Appeals and is sure to go to the Supreme Court either way the lower court rules.

The strangle hold on information and opinion that the mainstream media used to have is slowly being broken. Fewer and fewer people are getting their information from network news shows, and newspapers are almost dead. The internet, e-mail, cellular phones and other widespead technology is breaking the hold. Places like this forum are a part of that. People who would never think of registering as members surf in and read what we post here. It can't help but influence some of them. Some have even changed their minds and joined us.

Another encouraging trend is the resistance to the intrusive census questions that is coming from all across the political spectrum.

I made this anaylogy in a post a while back, but our current situation reminds me of the year 1942. If you look at history you will find that in 1942, things looked pretty bad for the good guys. Freedom was in retreat everywhere. But there were a couple of small victories that turned the tide for us, even though they didn't appear to be significant to the big picture at the time.

Luck, courage and good leadership beat the Japanese at Midway. Were the Japanese beat, no far from it, but it turned the tide. 3 more hard years were required to put them away, but they never were really on the offensive in the strategic sense again. The German invasion of the Soviet Union froze to death on the steppes of Russia in 1942. Were the Germans beat, no, but as with the Japanese, they never were on the offensive strategically again.

So what has happened this year? We won Emerson at the local court level. For the first time we put a halt to a Federal Gun Control law in the courts. The gun control proponents are now in the defensive. Oh the media doesn't tell us about it. But they are on the defensive. They may be counter attacking on another front, but they are being forced to defend their unconstitutional law in court. At the same time they are having to defend it, no less a legal luminary then Lawrence Tribe writes that like it or not the 2d Amendment is an individual right.

More people are on our side then the media tells us about. Most people are content to live their lives and would just as soon be left alone. SO they aren't involved in the debate. They don't really think about these things, they'd rather not, but when the issues directly affect them they will vote and act. And as much as we like to decry the public school system and the problems in our society, there still is a lot of common sense out there. Look at what does still work in our country. The economy is still chugging along, and in spite of the socialists in the congress, we're still accomplishing great things.

As for taking the high road, that is the only road to take. Our opponents are of the ilk that the ends always justify the means. I like to think that we are above that. As I said earlier, people who would never register and post will read what we post here. Talk of violent revolution just serves to reinforce the stereotype the mainstream media tries to hang on us. The majority of the people are living what they consider the good life right now. They are only going to be turned off to our cause by reading posts that don't take the high road.

Many of us are angry enough to vent our frustraions by talking of revolution. But to do so in public forum is not helping our cause. The average uniformed but openminded person is not going to be impressed by our frustrated rants. So I support the high road.

Now I'll pull on my nomex and grab the 30 lb CO2 fire extinguisher :)
 
I have not been in combat. It is my fervent hope that will never be. Keep in mind that guns are the insurance for tactical survival in case we screw up strategic end...and as such there's very little chance that any one here would escape a real civil war unhurt. Basically, if you are not willing to set off a hand grenade in the same room with you and take the chances, you are not going to like the odds that a civil war would entail. I also recommend that the folks who are eager for bayonet charges or even quiet sabotage really think through the possible consequences beyond "I won't get caught".

That I am willing to fight doesn't mean it is not very low on my list of options...it is very near from the bottom, ahead of only "surrender and die". Jeff has a good point. One of the reasons why all insurgents in history tended to recruited teenagers is because not many kids ask themselves the questions posed above. And those kids die fast, as would we unless we use all other means first.

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Oleg "cornered rat" Volk (JPFO,NRA)

http://dd-b.net/RKBA
 
Jeff,

You have a valid point. A lot of people wouldn't understand why we would be willing to risk our lives for FREEDOM, but I would rather die supporting a cause then die a ripe old age knowing I did nothing and wishing that I have. War is HELL, look at history and the numbers would support it. Everyone has to ask themselves if they are ready to die. It is very easy to sit behind a computer a claim that they would die, but would you. I know I would. I know there are people that talk the talk and dont walk the walk. My roommate is someone that we would call Sheeple. He supports our cause to protect arms but he sits on a subject untill I bring something new up. He comes home everyday saying that he heard someone at work saying something and I cant beleive my ears. I bought my first gun back in December, right before Armegadon was suppose to happen, at that time I was ready to take anyone down that try to come in UNWANTED. He told me that he would do the same if he had brought his 44 from back home, but then later was telling his dad he didn't know if he really could shoot someone. You can take a look at our military, I doubt half the people in it could actually take a person out but you put them in a situation to where their life depended on it and you bet they are going to fight back. Right now I think it is a little early to claim a revolution, but it is getting close. Before I would have said maybe not due to where I have lived.(Alaska Florida)Now being in Maryland and seeing the front line and seeing our freedom slowly taken away for a political cause it is time to dig in and start to fight back. God forbid if we had to go to war over this.

[This message has been edited by glockguy45 (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
Jeff,

Well thought out and well said.
This 'stalemate' WILL end.
We won't have to wait much longer...


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...defend the 2nd., it protects us all.
No fate but what we make...
 
I agree with both sides here and I hate getting stuck on a fence. I think the bottom line is that whether we like it or not when the time comes we will all know that it has arrived and we will all do what we will have to do. We will know!

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We preserve our freedoms by using four boxes: soap,ballot,jury, and cartridge.
Anonymous

[This message has been edited by loknload (edited March 17, 2000).]
 
Excellent point about Emerson v. US Jeff. Some people are too wrapped up in the negatives to pay attention to the signs of a positive, longterm trend; a positive, longterm trend where it counts--the federal courts and the state governments.

It is important to remember that we did not arrive at the point where our liberty was compromised overnight. Liberty can't be restored overnight either. You fight and win the battles that you can, when you can-keeping the ultimate goal in mind, never compromising fundamental principles.

The trends are hopeful. The right of people to defend themselves IS gaining ground. In 1996, for the first time in my lifetime, I'm 36, citizens in my state, Oklahoma, are allowed to carry weapons for the purpose of defending their lives.

The future is hopeful and we ARE winning.

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"I don't believe in individualism, Peter. I don't believe that any one man is any one thing which everybody else can't be. I believe that we are all equal and interchangeable."--Ellsworth Toohey
 
Jeff,

I have been in combat and, in fact, served as a Naval officer for decades. When commissioned, I swore that I would uphold the Constitution from all enemies, foreign and domestic. That was a long time ago, but if necessary I would today I give up my life to defend this nation.

The problem is, unlike over thirty years ago, this country's most fundamental enemies are now principally domestic, not foreign. In addition, many of these domestic enemies are elected through Constitutional procedures, notwithstanding the grave corruption that now undermines our political processes.

When:
> A cowardly, amoral individual is elected to this nation's highest office;
> His deeds emasculate the critical principles that sustained this nation through grave crises;
> The only leadership-by-example he provides is negative; and
> He repeatedly advocates and/or demonstrates illegal (perjury still is a felony, isn't it?) and unconstitutional (the Second Amendment hasn't been repealed, has it?) actions.
Then it is time to consider serious modifications to our Constitution.

The real question is will these changes eventually be achieved through lawful or through revolutionary means. We should remember that Washington, Jefferson, Adams and their blessed peers were traitors -- not patriots -- in the King George's perception.
 
If all us gun owners get up off our rears and work together, we can turn the tide. But we need to take action now.

CitizensofAmerica, GOA, CCRKA, Marathon, etc. actively work to push the anti-gun forces back. But unless they have all of our support, they will fail.

I don't want a revolution, but that may be the only option unless we gun owners become active politically.

It's up to us.
 
I've long held the opinion that the next "American Revolution" will be fought in the fields of politics and courtrooms, not the field of battle.
We are still a long way from open warfare. Our war is fought as small skirmishes in the courtroom and the voting booth on a daily basis.
Our biggest enemy is not HCI, Bill Clinton or even the U.S. Government. Our biggest enemy is our own tired, apathetic and self absorbed people who stand back and let those in government tear down the constitution.
We are our own worst enemy, truth and information are our best weapons.
If some day it does come to war, I will fight and die if needed. In the meantime I fight every day to turn the tide, by informing one person at a time.

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Politically, Fashionably and Aerodynamically Incorrect!
 
RWK,
25 years ago I took a similar oath when I joined the Army. All new enlistees still swear and affirm that they will defend the Constitution. The problem is, most of them have no idea what the Constitution is or what it says.

I think the danger is that when a serious event happens and awakens the sleeping giant that is the American public, who or what will they turn to. In response to the Great Depression FDR instituted many programs that were clearly unconstitutional. He not only got away with it, but is hailed as a hero by many even today.

I feel the war has to be fought on the field of education and awareness. The problem is that freedom is hard. You have to take the time to be educated on the issues and make hard choices to do unpleasant things sometimes. I'm convinced that a great majority of our population would rather live under a benevolent dictator then work to exercise self government as the founders intended. It's just easier to have someone else take care of these things for you.

Lets fight in the voting booth and in court before we fight in the streets. My point is that we aren't helping ourselves right now with reckless talk of revolution, even among ourselves. I would like nothing more then to see the US Marshals place the cuffs on Bill Clinton as soon as he walks from the podium on inauguration day. I don't believe that will hapen but we can all dream :)

I still maintain that we have reason to be optimistic. I remember that they couldn't nationalize healthcare, even with a Democratic controlled congress. Why, the woke the sleeping giant of public opinion. This is where I think we need to fight the next battle. Perhaps commercials like the ones that ran during the health care debate. A couple talking over the news and saying, "If this bill passes we could be felons because of grandpa's old gun." And then following up with "Doesn't the Second Amendment prohibit the government from doing this, we're good people, we don't live in a crack house, why are we being scapegoated for the administrations inability to deal with poverty and violence in the inner city?"

Let's try a campaign like this.

Jeff
 
Jeff, I agree.

However, I also fear that our primary representatives in the political process -- the Congress -- are so overwhelmingly focused on continuous re-election that fundraising, pandering to the media and to public whims, and political posturing has replaced policy making and attempts to move our society forward.

With best regards.
 
I agree to a point. I already said this on another thread--I thought this over years ago and realized that I would not be one of the heroes from Red Dawn. I would be choosing the chance to die well over slavery. That is not a good choice.

Churchill said something I don't recall to the effect that, if you're not willing to fight for what is right when you can win easily, you will be FORCED to fight for it later when the odds are against you and things look dark and you may not survive. In a way, that's where we are, because those who went before us were unable to prevail when the fight seemed less desperate. But in a way, we have to remember that we're also the ones who have it easy. In most places we'd have to skip all the political options we discuss so much and go straight to dying.

Just remember that if we don't fight hard enough now, when we can still win in courts and legislatures, our descendents will have to fight to survive in real combat.
 
I have always liked the paraphrased Churchill quote Don mentions. It applies to us all.

Another I remember:"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
- Winston Churchill
 
Jeff,you said it with'Ifeel the war has to
be fought on the field of education and
awareness"
We have grown soft as a people,sorry to say,
greedy and spoiled. We permitted the far left
to take over our public schools and dumb down
a whole generation.I'm very concerned we will
need to hit bottom before retaking our place
as a free people.We have a corrupt government
and our people are apathetic.I am very concerned for our country as I near 60 years
of age I will spend the rest of my life trying to do what I can to change things
within the law.
 
I've never been in combat (didn't try to avoid, just waited for my number). I've never been in prison, nor a country where a civil war was underway. And I'll do everything I can to avoid embroiling myself in such positions by working within the system now.

There are a lot of you who are disenchanted with the Republican Party, and I don't blame you. There's two factions to it: the Establishment Republicans, who care little about RKBA, abortion and other such issues; and the grassroots faction, who care deeply about those issues. Changing the Republican party could be done more quickly than bringing third parties up to speed. We _do_
have real friends in the party like Senator
Craig, Senator Bob Smith, Congressman Bob Barr, and a host of others. We just need more. It seems like gun owners are now energized more than I've seen them in several years. And this gives me hope, both for our future and for the makeup of the Republican Party.

BTW, G-freeman, can you reference that Churchill quote? I love it. (Second only to "whenever I get the urge to excercise, I lie down until it passes).

Dick
 
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