WARNING: How a 1911 can go F.A. or N.D. while loading it

Bruegger

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In an old thread - http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=47300&pagenumber=2

I mentioned the way I was taught to load the 1911 while on a shooting team in the USMC: "Trigger firmly pressed to the rear while the slide is drawn and released. Got to make sure you keep the trigger squeezed, though, or you get a negligent discharge." I remembered being told to do this to prevent wear on the weapon, but couldn't recall the details.

This procedure shocked some folks who thought the practice was unsafe. I couldn't recall WHY were told to do so until I ran across the following article....

http://www.detnet.com/fuselier/AUTO1911.HTML

[Because this is a long article, let me give a Reader's Digest version and the conclusion:]

Basically, the author asserts that you should immobilize the trigger when chambering a round in a 1911 that has a light trigger pull to prevent a negligent discharge or even the weapon going full auto (doh!).

However, the likelihood of this isn't great, as the author notes:

"Not to cause undue alarm, let me say that any 1911 with a trigger pull of 4+ pounds, in which most of the tension is sear spring, is not likely to act in this fashion [Go F.A. or negligently discharge]. This is an explanation of why guns with a very light sear spring can accidentally discharge while being initially loaded without the trigger being immobilized."


ARTICLE:

How a 1911 can go full auto or AD while loading it

The ordinarily reliable 1911 style semiauto pistol has a potential for going full auto under the right circumstances [BRUEGGER NOTE - I'd call these the "wrong circumstances" - who would want a 1911 to N.D. or go F.A. while they were holding it?]. To understand how this can happen let us first look at the design and parts which are intended to prevent this from happening.

When the trigger is pulled with a fully cocked hammer and a live round in the chamber, the sequence of events is as follows. The trigger bow pushes the disconnector towards the rear of the pistol. If the slide is fully in battery, a notch under the slide has allowed the disconnector to slide up and slip under the sear heel. When the disconnector is pushed to the rear by the trigger bow, it then pushes the sear heel also and causes the sear to pivot out of engagement with the hammer. The hammer then drops, strikes the firing pin, the gun discharges.

All of this may seem elementary, it is what happens on the reload cycle that can cause the problem. When the slide is out of battery, the disconnector, as noted earlier, is pushed down out of the notch in the slide. It is pushed below the heel on the sear, and is held to the rear by the trigger, which is still held in a rearmost "pulled" position, not having been released by the finger of the shooter. This allows the sear to trap the hammer, which was cocked by the recoil of the slide.

After the slide picks up a fresh cartridge and chambers it while going back into battery, the shooter releases the trigger, which moves forward, allowing the disconnector to rise into the notch and move back under the heel of the sear. The gun is now ready for another discharge. This is the way it is designed to operate, and if all parts are fitted correctly it will.

Let us see what happened when the slide is "dropped" on a live round and the trigger is deliberately not being held to the rear during initial loading. Start with a slide that has been retracted or was locked back by the slide stop. The disconnector is pushed down from under the heel of the sear because the notch in the slide has moved away.

Now here is where the problem with a loose trigger arises. There is a "window" of about .1+" in most 1911s in which the notch moves back over the disconnector just before the slide slams home in battery. Should the disconnector move up quickly enough, it could slide under the heel of the sear and be in a position to push the sear out of engagement with the hammer before the slide actually shuts. The trigger bow may or may not be in contact with the disconnector, but the slide slamming into battery transfers a forward motion to the frame, and true to the laws of motion, the trigger and disconnector try to remain stationary while the frame moves forward under the impact of the slide.

A heavy, old style trigger, a light sear spring and a slightly short or worn disconnector can set up a situation in which the mass of the trigger and disconnector added together may be enough to kick the sear out of the hammer, creating an accidental discharge.

Consider what happens when the initial loading and slide dropping is accompanied by a firm holding down and immobilizing of the trigger. The way to do this is to insert the loaded magazine, pull the trigger, and draw the slide back and release it while holding the trigger. Alternatively, if the slide is already locked open, pull the trigger, insert the magazine, and release the slide while holding the trigger. This obviously mimics the operation when the gun self-loads. When the trigger is held back the disconnector is prevented from rising behind the heel of the sear. It remains truly "disconnected" and the sear is free to trap the hammer as it is cocked by the slide. At this point the gun is loaded and the hammer is cocked and the trigger is still held back.

Releasing the trigger at this point completes the loading cycle. Listening carefully the shooter will hear and feel the click as the disconnector is returned to the "armed" positiom. The gun is now armed and ready to shoot.

If the shooter is not ready at this point to fire, the finger should be withdrawn from the trigger and not returned until ready to fire. Admittedly, this method of loading requires careful attention to sequence, and a lapse in attention may cause a negligent discharge. Nevertheless, it is the safest way to load a 1911 pistol with a very light trigger pull.

Not to cause undue alarm, let me say that any 1911 with a trigger pull of 4+ pounds, in which most of the tension is sear spring, is not likely to act in this fashion. This is an explanation of why guns with a very light sear spring can accidentally discharge while being initially loaded without the trigger being immobilized. When adjusting trigger pull it is important to keep the most tension on the sear tab. The disconnector/trigger return spring should only have enough tension to assure return of the disconnector to the armed position, behind the sear heel.
 
In the early 1950s, I ran across a "bit" in The American Rifleman about a problem with the Llamas produced PRIOR to sometime in the early 1950s--don't remember the exact year.

There was some part (disconnector?) which could actually be installed in reverse from the proper position. Reassembly could be completed, and the pistol would dry fire as though all was well. However, if so done, whee! Full Auto!

IMO, such a problem would have been cured--and soonest!

FWIW, Art
 
This is getting scary - I had only one good source for dating this thing and he wrote 1964-ish. Any other recognized source(s) for dating? ...I haven't gotten a firm ID from the Spanish sites...only one armor/smith stamp and it was too broad a time span.

Anyway, Art, do you think we could create a select fire knob that would rotate the disconnector? Real fun there, huh? ;)
 
On series 80 Colts it's possible to incorrectly install the firing pin so that it protrudes from the firing pin hole. Dropping the slide on a full mag would be a handful.
 
OK... keep it up and I'll go back to a Daisy Red Ryder.

How many more "possibiles/probables" are there anyway? Getting spooky up here.
 
I've only read of that ONE instance. When you stop to consider that nobody ever had this problem at an IPSC or IDPA match...Nor with any U.S.-made Colt.

I dunno. I've been shooting the darned things for some 50 years, and the only problems I've ever had came from the "human stoopid factor". Some things, I just don't even worry about. Seems pointless.

:), Art

"Don't make a career of picking flypoop out of pepper."
 
i recall 2 IPSC matches where a competitor 1911 went full auto for most of a magazinefull. i can't say much however because my glock 17 was shooting 2-3 shot bursts in one match. Fortunately it was the last stage of the day and on the last group of targets. folks thought i had found the secret to fast double taps with glock...Dick
 
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