War time Winchester Model 94’s quality

B

Bhauer

New member
Was there a significant difference in quality of Winchester model 94’s built in 1939 vs 1940 or 1941? Looking at three different rifles made in those years, all about the same condition. I’ve read as Winchester entered the WWII years quality started to go down hill.
Thanks!
 
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I was under the impression that when the US entered WWII, the Gov't basically shut down domestic auto manufacturing which probably carried over to the domestic firearms industry - all in the name of wartime military production. I might be incorrect on that, but if you couldnt' buy a new car in 1942 thru 1945, how could you assume you could buy a new firearm, assuming they were still being produced for civilian consumption.
 
Some Civilian manufacturing did continue during the war.
Savage would contact their Production Supervisor, and if caught up or ahead of their war production, would make runs of Model 99EG Rifles.
Winchester may have done the same.
 
Lots of stuff disappeared from civilian ability to purchase due to the "war effort." My dad was lucky as he was able to buy one of the very few Desoto sedans near the end of 1941. It was because his job on the waterfront was considered to be essential to the war effort and his 1934 Plymouth was not considered reliable. Gasoline was rations and jeeps and trucks had their tanks drain prior to be loaded onto the ships. Most longshoremen brought containers to salvage some of that gas. My dad had four jerry cans filled. Kept two for himself and two for his father so they didn't need to use up ration stamps. I remember them using a funnel with a very fine screen to filter out the gunk from those gas tanks and jerry cans.
Paul B.
 
The last Model 94 manufactured before production was temporarily halted to support the War efforts was serial number 1343183 on 8/23/1942. Production was resumed on a full time basis on 9/24/1945.
 
flat band '94's

I have no source concerning the following, but read same.....somewhere.
I cannot advise on the appearance of the '94 up to '42. But it is my understanding that the early post WWII M94's featured what is known as the "flat" barrel band. I have seen and handled exactly one. Neat old rifle, came out of Florida, likely owned by some retiree from up north. The old carbine had a Marbles compass set into the buttstock, an accessory that seems popular on some of the North Woods rifles.....few terrain features to navigate by I reckon.

I should have bought that old rifle.
 
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I thought of the Spruce Army, but that was WW I. 1800 lever actions to guard the NW lumber industry producing wood for biplanes, etc.
 
Did the OP receive an answer to his original post regarding quality? No doubt if any firearms were produced for sale to the general public, wartime material shortages probably led to some corner-cutting or material substitution - (i.e., build with what you can get). I wouldn't have wanted to be on the War Resources Board making decisions as to who gets what materials.
 
The US didn't enter the war until December 1941. They had 12 months of 1941 to produce firearms. I'd say even a few in early 1942 were made. It was after that when production was changed to military weapons.

Generally speaking any Winchester made prior to WW-2 is considered good. It was after the war, 1945-1963 that quality slipped gradually. But this was more with the model 70 than the 94.

Of course in 1964 the model 70 was completely redesigned to be able to produce cheaper. The 94 wasn't changed but quality still gradually declined until about 1980 when Winchester was bought by a group of investors. The 1980's and 1990's Winchesters are pretty good. It was about 2000 when quality started to slip until they closed the New Haven factory in 2006.
 
I don't know whether it was a US Govt. order to shut down or lucrative military contracts with bigger profits that halted the production of civilian firearms. I'm inclined towards the latter.
 
The arsenal of democracy

That "arsenal" was quite active prior to our declaration of war in Dec. of 41. The 30's saw production of war materials increasing to support the Brits. we were already been producing guns for the war effort for others. Then we really got to going. Brings up one of my greatest worries, factories ultimately "win the war" by out producing the enemy. In each passing year we are losing our ability to manufacture anything at all.
Not to take away from our heroes in uniform, they can't win without equipment.
 
The US didn't enter the war until December 1941.
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In the official, and legal sense, the declaration of war was Dec 8th, 1941. However, we had been producing arms as a "neutral nation" for some years before that, both building up our forces for the conflict we could see coming, and selling arms to foreign nations to support their war effort.

When the British Home Guard was drilling with shovels and rakes and pitchforks due to a lack of arms, private American citizens sent some of their personal guns to England to help arm them against Nazi invasion.

And the British were buying (or being "loaned") everything from the US arms industry they could get.

I don't know whether it was a US Govt. order to shut down or lucrative military contracts with bigger profits that halted the production of civilian firearms. I'm inclined towards the latter.
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Don't discount the fact that patriotism played a HUGE factor. The change over to wartime production (which was far from instantaneous) wasn't entirely driven by govt orders, or the profit motive alone. The American public was mad as hell, even those pushing isolationism either changed their tune or just shut up entirely after that Sunday in Dec.

Over a fairly short period of months, virtually every industry in the nation that could contribute to the war effort set up to do so, and it wasn't entirely for profit. Sure, they made money, but there was a bit more to it than just the desire to make money.

And, while general production of civilian arms was drastically reduced, it wasn't completely eliminated, other than by the choice of the people running the different factories. IF govt contracts were being met, and the factory had spare production capacity, some did produce small numbers of guns for civilian sales. Savage did this, and likely some of the others too.

Brings up one of my greatest worries, factories ultimately "win the war" by out producing the enemy. In each passing year we are losing our ability to manufacture anything at all.
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I'm sure the US could, in time of great need create/recreate the industrial capability we once had, IF we have the time. And that the biggest worry, with modern tech, weapons and delivery systems, we're unlike to have the time, unmolested, as we did in WWII.

The two great advantages the US had during WWII was first, the bulk of the raw materials we needed were available "locally", and second (and far from unimportant) was that our factories and our civilian population was far removed from the war fronts (generally) and did not face the threat of direct enemy attack the way European nations were.

..factories ultimately "win the war" by out producing the enemy.
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While there is truth in this, its not the entire story, just one big part of what wins the war. The other parts are that the war materials have to get to where they are needed, and used successfully by our troops, and having those troops is also a vital part.

Everything civilian didn't get complete shut down for the war effort, many things did, others were just drastically reduced. Here's a tidbit, even after the ammo makers "dropped everything but military production" they still made some .30-30 ammo.

America could manage without an abundant supply of new hunting rifles, but without ammo, they aren't good for much. Being able to get a box of .30-30 might be the difference between eking by on ration allowance or being better fed for a lot of families.
 
I'd read in past that some 94s were made during the War. Mine was a gift from a favorite uncle many Moons ago. I figured it was made in the '40s, but couldn't confirm that until very recently. My model 94 30WCF was made, according to the Winchester Collectors site, in 1942. Blue worn, but it seemed nicely fitted and finished to me, and has never given any issues. If quality had declined by 1942, I admit I don't know how that decline might have manifest itself..
 
their is a monument of a stuabaker truck in Russia that they received from the usa thru lend lease. letting then move men and equipment much quicker than useing horses. the germans were still useing horses to move most of their supplys
 
Had Hitler built more U-boats, as he was advised to do....
Thanks for the excellent elaboration 44amp. You are right, it takes time.
 
Had Hitler waited until 1945 to get expansionist, as he was advised to do...


I have a Model 70 Target Winchester with serial number that charts to 1942 but the barrel is dated 1955. A replacement? An action left on the shelf for 13 years? I have heard of other 1955 barrels.
 
A replacement? An action left on the shelf for 13 years?
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I think a rebarrel is more likely than the action just sitting on the shelf all that time, though it is possible. Winchester didn't jump back into full commercial production on VJ Day +1, it took some time to ramp back up to where they had been pre-war.

regarding history, Hitler issues the "Z plan" as part of the rearmament of Germany that began in 1935. The plan was based on there being no major war in Europe before 1945, and military construction, particularly naval followed that plan.

After getting away with taking Czechoslovakia "for free", Hitler tossed the plan, (though not the navy part) and gambled on a "short, victorious war".

He lost.
 
"I don't know whether it was a US Govt. order to shut down"

That was, in many cases, EXACTLY what happened.

Many industries were told in the days following US entry into the war that civilian production would be highly curtailed or outright stopped, and that only military production would continue.

Yes, the military contracts certainly took the sting out of that (and were, in fact, FAR more lucrative that selling to civilians during the Depression), but Detroit was told in no uncertain terms that all vehicle production was now for the military.

Many appliance manufacturers, tire manufacturers, etc., were also told the same thing.

One easy way of ensuring this was the allocation of critical materials, especially copper.

You want a couple hundred tons of copper for making toasters? Nope.

Rubber was especially badly affected, because virtually all natural rubber supplies had been rolled up by the Japanese in their expansion in South East Asia.

Virtually ALL commercial rubber products -- tires, fan belts, shoe soles, even elastic for underwear -- became incredibly scarce.

There was one exception to civilian rubber allocations, an allocation that was given pretty high priority...

The rubber used for canning jar rings and lids.

The government pushed Americans to grow as much of their own fruit and vegetables as they could, as they wanted commercially produced food to go to the military.

In the days before home freezers were common, canning was the only realistic way of preserving food long term, and to do that you needed rubber for the jar seals.
 
"Everything civilian didn't get complete shut down for the war effort, many things did, others were just drastically reduced. Here's a tidbit, even after the ammo makers "dropped everything but military production" they still made some .30-30 ammo. "

But even that was very tightly controlled and primarily for use by civilians who joined civil defense organizations, especially those tasked with guarding local infrastructure -- water and power plants -- beach and river patrol, forest patrol.

There were far more facilities that needed to be guarded than there were available "formal" resources, and Civil Defense volunteers took up a lot of that slack.

The most common hunting rifle chambering at the time was likely the .30-30, between the 1894 and the Savage 99.

Other cartridges also allocated for release to local civil defense organizations included .30-06, .45 ACP, .38 Special, .22 Long Rifle, and 12 gauge.

I saw written some years ago that some plant guards were armed with .45-70 Trapdoor rifles and surplussed military ammunition -- that likely would have been released by State Guard units. I suspect that Krag rifles and .30-40 mil surplus ammo would also have been available. But, I don't think that either of those cartridges would have been manufactured commercially for release.
 
"Generally speaking any Winchester made prior to WW-2 is considered good. It was after the war, 1945-1963 that quality slipped gradually. But this was more with the model 70 than the 94."

I have two Winchester M64s in 30-30. One was serial numbered to 1938 and the other to 1957 IIRC. The early rifle has seen some hard use compared to the later version but the lever of quality in the 1938 rifle is a great deal higher than the 1957 rifle.

"Other cartridges also allocated for release to local civil defense organizations included .30-06, .45 ACP, .38 Special, .22 Long Rifle, and 12 gauge."

I can't speak for the other cartridges but see the reasoning, I do know that .22 LR was reserved to some degree for farmers to protect their crops from varmint. The 30-30 was for ranchers to protect livestock from predators. Some of my paternal Grandparents relatives had apricot orchards during the was and they were able to get a rationed supply of .22LR and some shotgun ammo during the war.

Over the 1949 Labor Day weekend, I went on my first deer hunt. I was all of 11 years old. My dad gave one of the other hunters a double handful of 30-06 ammo that was to be swept into San Francisco bay during the was when a crate of ammo fell and broke open while being loaded onto the ship. I remember the gut telling dad that he shot a .270 but will pull the bullets and make .270 brass out of the 06 and use the powder as well. Back then I didn't know one could do things like that I quickly learned otherwise.
Paul B.
 
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