Want to make the best load I can ....4" model 19 shooting 38 spcl

N

Nathan

New member
The title says it all. I want the best 25 yd group I can get out of my 38/357 s&w 19.

Cases: I have several brands and pref?
CL: I plan to trim to trim length to make them even.
Primers: I have CCI and Win SP....PREF.
Powder: I have 700x, titegroup, longshot. I can get 231, if there is a thought it might be best.
Bullets: I'm limiting this to Xtreme 148gr full plated wadcutters.
OAL: I have no idea.
Method: OCW at 15 or 25 yds


Other variables I should consider? What is the recipe that will get me close. I have a guess I'll share later, but I feel like I need your experience.

Tell me what to do.
 
Other variables I should consider?
Click to expand...
Although many other shooters have stated that they can get good target accuracy using .38 Spl. cases in .357 guns, I found I could not. I found my best accuracy with target loads in .357 cases. Admittedly, if I had worked harder finding a .38 case based load I might have been successful. But, I felt that I had spent enough time looking for one with .38 cases and it did not happen.
It is imperative that you consult a handloading manual. However, I doubt if you are going to find any wadcutter loads listed for .357. I had to go all the way back to the old RCBS Cast Bullet Handbook to find any wadcutter loads for the .357. The last three (now four with the Lyman 50th Edition now out) Lyman Handbooks do not show any wadcutter loads for .357 at all.
 
Last edited:
I load/shoot tons of plated 148's for 38 Special target. However, my plated 148 of choice is a Rainier. I usually shoot them through a Model 67 - which is a 38 Special. But I've never noticed any difference in accuracy shooting them through a 357 (686's - 3" & 4"). I don't however, shoot to 25 yards, or off a bench. So accuracy isn't my utmost priority. I will tell you that I'm a pretty good shot with a revolver and all my 38 target ammo pretty much goes right where I point them.

I wouldn't bother trimming your cases. In 32 years of loading 38 Special, I've never trimmed a single case. I have almost entirely Winchester and Starline cases; so I separate them. If I had a bunch of mixed cases, I would put my OCD in neutral and not bother separating them. I just don't believe it's that critical.

I use Winchester primers (WSF). I have also used CCI (500); in fact, CCI is my primer of choice and the only reason I use WSF is because my Model 67 has had a trigger job and the Win's require less hammer force to ignite.

I've never used 700X, but it's in the right burn rate range. I've used a lot of TiteGroup and it's a good choice. Never used Longshot but I'm sure it's too slow for the application. W231 is the best choice; but oddly, I have little load data for W231/148P.

Skimming through my chronograph records, I show 4.2gn of W231 going 870 f/s through my 67 4". That was a little fast for my use (IDPA Power Factor = 710 f/s), but if you're shooting to 25 yards, that might be just about right. Additional info: Looking into more of my records, I show 3.4 grains W231 going 770 f/s when seated flush. So that's more info since I originally posted this.

For TiteGroup, 3.4 grains was driven to 770 f/s through my 67 4". That is one of my IDPA rounds (my first choice being Vihtavuori N310 - but that's another post).

My OAL for 148 Plated DEWC's is 1.24" I leave them protruding out beyond the case mouth just a little to emulate a lead DEWC. Also, I don't seat them flush because I need them to speedload quickly. Seated flush, they won't speedload very well.

I use a taper crimp die. But if you only have a roll crimp die, that's okay. Just crimp enough to take the flair out. Crimp is basically not needed in this application. The fast propellants we're talking about here ignite easily; and there is a lot of bullet/case surface area interface with wadcutters. They're stuffed in there pretty tight regardless of crimp.

Hope that gives you some kind of a reference point to get started.
 
Last edited:
Have shot thousands of 148 gr. wadcutters and 148 g. double edge wad cutters, over 2.8 grains of Bullseye. Great load and never had to trim.
 
Using .38 Spl. cases in a .357 works just fine, but also gives rise to needing to clean the cylinders first if you plan on shooting .357 after the .38. Isn't a bit deal though. A .45 calibre brush does it in one pass.
Anyway, 148 WC's, plated or not, work best with 2.5 to 2.8 of Bullseye, seated flush or a tick above flush. 2.7 or 2.8 has been the 'go-to' bullseye shooting target load for eons. No issues whatsoever using a .357 case either. No crimping target loads.
 
For a light target load, I'd suggest that Titegoup will be your best choice for powder for a 148gr DEWC load.. Actually, W231/HP or 700X will also work.
I wouldn't worry too much about OAL and if you load them light, some even prefer just to taper crimp and/or light roll crimp at all. Best accuracy will likely be with a good cast/lubed or coated bullet. I've never had much success with plated anything, in terms of great accuracy.
 
I'd suggest that Titegoup will be your best choice for powder for a 148gr DEWC load. Actually, W231 will also work.
Click to expand...

Yes, W231 will also work - better than TiteGroup. Just my opinion, and I'm probably splitting hairs at that. Both will do the job well.

The point I am making is that TiteGroup runs slower than W231. And I know this from extensive testing over various calibers (38 Special; 357 Magnum; 44 Special; & 45 ACP), bullet types (lead, plated, jacketed), weights, and profiles.

From my work ups, I've learned that TG will consistently out velocity W231 before pressure signs. That's the good side. On the not so good side, TG can be problematic when you turn it down to typical pure target velocities. It tends to run sooty with unspent propellant flakes; where W231 is still clean, pushing the same bullet to the same velocities. Or to put it simply: W231 is a faster propellant than TG.

I do use TG for 158 plated SWC's (X-treme) for ICORE competition (38 Special). Power Factor is made at 765 f/s. Pushing a plated bullet (but not a lead bullet), TG will run clean at this weight/velocity. But much less, it'll soot up.

Speaking specifically to the quote: I use a plated 148 DEWC for IDPA competition. To make Power Factor, it only needs 710 f/s. So we're talking a lighter bullet and less velocity than the 158gn ICORE round mentioned above. At this light loading, TG does not run clean. It runs consistent and accurate, but not clean. It's an under-pressure loading. I like clean too; so I don't use TG for 148 DEWC's - W231 runs much better. Now if our OP is going to drive them harder than the 710 f/s (my TG recipe is actually about 770), then at some point TG will clean up and it'll be a great running round.
 
Last edited:
Nick, I really appreciate the details in your post.

In Lyman #49, they show the min titegroup load as the accuracy load. I think I will load some in that range with Titegroup and since it sounds like 700X might be cleaner, I will load some of that.

I'm thinking load 3 sets of titegroup around that min load and load 5 across the bottom half of the 700X range. Then go from there.
 
Here's some more details. This is my chronograph load work up data for TG. Keep in mind I don't seat flush - their OAL is 1.24". All rounds were shot through a Smith model 67 4" bbl. Rainier plated 148 DEWC. WSP primers. 12 round samples.

2.9 grains = 645 f/s
3.0 grains = 663 f/s
3.1 grains = 686 f/s
3.2 grains = 725 f/s* Standard Deviation winner & IDPA Power Factor reached.
3.3 grains = 735 f/s
3.4 grains = 770 f/s

This is my data. Your mileage may vary. Always do your own work ups.

Once I hit PF, I had no need to continue working up. My notes state that these are consistent shooters but my IDPA rounds using either Nitro 100 or VV N-310 delivered better Standard Deviations and a much cleaner burn.

It's a bit of along story, but I don't have similar data for W231/HP-38. Basically, I got into IDPA competition during the big shortage of '13/'14. I chose to reserve my remaining stock of W231 for 45 ACP. But I have no doubt that W231 would perform admirably. And I will some day do an IDPA work up for it - since I now have over 10 #'s of it ;).

About accuracy: At least in the 38 Special world; and the way I shoot; it seems to me that accuracy is mostly a function of the bullet itself. Get the right bullet, and it'll go straight; and propellant type/charge has little to do with it. Just my opinion.

Last thing: Use some caution when creating target level velocity rounds with a revolver and plated bullets. You mentioned the Lyman 49th (which I have). The bullet I think you're referencing is a lead bullet. Lead slides down the barrel easier than plated. Between that and the barrel/cylinder gap bleeding off gasses, a stuck bullet is a real possibility. Make sure you're seeing a downrange impact and feel for recoil. If something doesn't feel right - stop - and investigate.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top