Wadcutters for self defence?

N

NINEX19

New member
Picked up a box of 38spl wadcutters for dirt cheap the other day. I have never shot these before and dont know much about them except they are used mostly for target. It got me thinking how they would be as a self defence round.

No, I am not nuts, just curious.

These are exposed lead by the way. Not even sure if they come in any other form.
 
I'd imagine that they are really downloaded. I've heard tell that full-load wadcutters or even reversed hollow-base wadcutters can be quite good for a defense round. Never tried moving on faster than 700-800fps though.
 
Well, if it's driven fast enough it could expand pretty well. Depends on the lead alloy. I fired a .44 pure lead ball from a derringer into a stack of wet phone books once, the ball shattered into innumerable peices some of which penetrated 5 or so inches. Not sure what speed it was moving at, but I'm sure it was pretty darned slow.
 
The hollow base wadcutters are almost always downloaded and are not a great defensive choice. There are (or load your own) solid full wadcutters (even copper plated full wadcutters) that can be driven at magnum speeds that are rather impressive.

Elliot
 
Copper plated wadcutters

Just for the fun of it, I have loaded solid wadcutters in 357 mag
brass, going about 1150 FPS. All I did with them was punch holes in paper.
I sure didnt have to worry about how thick the paper was. BTW they were very accurate.


Tony
 
Quite a few people use light load wadcutters for home defense because they will have less overpenetration. Another approach is a hollow-base wadcutter loaded upside down; this is probably the best expanding bullet available and will expand at fairly low velocity, since it is nearly pure lead. Driven at high speed, it is devastating. (Yes, it will lead the barrel. Who cares in a serious situation?)

As for damage, a wadcutter cuts flesh and bone, and causes a severe wound channel that bleeds out heavily. There is little hydrostatic shock, but even a slow moving wadcutter is nothing to stand in front of.

Jim
 
Wad Cutters

In his book "No Second Place Winner" Bill Jordan suggested using a hollow base wadcutter with a gas check fitted to the nose. The result was then loaded nose down into a .38 Spl case with powder for a load of about 1000 fps.

He claimed it was one of the best stoppers around.

V/r

Chuck
 
Come on, guys, 'No Second Place Winner' came out in 1965. The ammo companies have learned a little bit since then.
Ninex19, I recommend you shoot those wadcutters at targets like they were made for and buy some nice 158 grain lead hollowpoints - the FBI load before they "modernized" to automatics that did not work - for defense.
 
I *wish* they'd learned enough since 1965! Especially about MARKETING, or real-world test data.

There is not ONE maker out there with a load "tested in and tuned for" the lowly 2" barrel .38snub. With the sole exception of MagSafe, if you're into frangibles.

It's all "these will probably work OK in a snub, but we have no data and if we did we wouldn't say" :barf:.
 
better than you might imagine

LWC .38 SPl, even at anemic velocities work very well for self defense applications that do not require hard target penetration.There was a lot of testing done by the Swedes some years back using LWC in calibrated gelatin. Also a brilliant book called Defensive Handgun Effectivenss by Dr. Carroll Peters at Univ. of Tennessee (probably out of print) has good data on this subject. As a nighstand gun a .38 with LWC is OK by me!
 
I know of one case...

A Reserve Bank security officer used a S&W M-52 to successfully thwart an armed robbery in the early 80s. As he exited his vehicle, he fired six shots, all of which missed. He then reloaded went to prone and from behind the front wheel of the vehicle fired one shot at the SLR (FNFAL) armed robber, hitting him center of chest. Robber collapsed and later expired. Yes I know it is an odd gun/ammo combination for service use but it's a true story. Now retired he still has that gun.

We tried loading wad-cutters upside down for revolvers. We could not get them on paper at twenty-five meters.
 
I've heard before that a backwards target wadcutter works great, 'cept the accuracy sucks.

I wonder why? Is it the poor aerodynamics, or the massive rear weight?

Putting a gas check plate on the nose might fix the streamlining problem. So would putting a soft rubber ball in the nose, letting it squish like the Cor-Bon Pow'R'Ball concept. Or fill the nose with non-toxic silicon sealer (aquarium cement), same basic effect?
 
Gelatin proof?!

Gentlemen,

If you don't have any real experience, I urge caution when you referance the "low penetration" of the lowly target wadcutter.
Underpenetrating is not a property that I would assign to it. I can tell you that a factory wadcutter will completely penetrate two solid core doors and more. So it is intuitively obvious that wall board will offer far less resistance. Having actually used the lowly wadcutter to kill game (shot from J frames), I must tell you that Mr. Kennan is correct. Even a slow moving wadcutter is nothing to stand in front of. Back in the early-80's, I experimented quite a bit with reverse HBWC handloads. Accuracy is mildly improved by seating the bullet further out, say half the length of the bullet. Even then, you can only expect groups of 6 - 8 inches at 50 feet. Not a problem a social distances but I shudder the thought of having to explain to a jury why the factory loads weren't as good as my homegrown "Manstopper" loads. What to I carry? Depends on the gun in hand. Either 158 gr. LSWCHP +P or the lowly wadcutter. I have no doubt, if used by cool hands and head, each will get the job done. Stay safe.
Docbones
 
Well, I am not sure of some of your terminology, (like "backwards target wadcutter" or "gas check plate on the nose") so I will describe a little about the round I am talking about so maybe someone can address this round specifically.

These are Sellier & Bellot 148gr lead WC. The top of the bullet is flush with the top of the brass (no lead extends outside of the brass) and there is a little bump or "nose" in the center of the bullet. Velocity - 700 ft/sec Energy - 161 ftlbs

Hope this helps
 
This is not a scientific test, but it sure taught me a thing or two about wadcutters. A 148 grain wadcutter from a 2" barreled snubbie would not penetrate a 55 gallon barrel at a range of 10 feet! I reloaded with 125 grain jacketted +P hollowpoints, and made the hole that I was looking for. As long as I have something else available, I won't be using WC's for self-defense.
 
I've been using wadcutters in my .38 J-frame. They're accurate and you know they'll cut a wound channel the diameter of the bullet from the point of entry on. Don't always get reliable expansion from Hollow points.
As mine is rated .38 special, not .38 + p, its hard to find wadcutters with enough uumphh! Just logged on to Hornady site, and their 148 hb wadcutter is rated at 800 fps, 210 fpe.
Does anyone know of a .38 wadcutter (not .38 +p) that does better than Hornady's?
 
Reverse LSWC

Jordan said (not in his book, verbally) the trick to the reverse lead wadcutter was the gas check.

The gas check minimized leading, and allowed driving the round at a fairly high velocity... and the velocity fixes the stability problem that attenuates the accuracy of the round.

I have never used one "socially" but I would tend to believe Mr. Jordan, condisering he had engaged in a number of "social" shootings. Based on shooting to protect his life etc. I would think he KNOWS what works...

FWIW

Chuck
 
I don't want to get into a contest on behalf of old ideas, but may I point out that, to the best of my knowledge, people have not become significantly harder to kill since 1965 or any other year. I suspect that what worked then, will still work.

Perhaps the old timers had one advantage; they actually learned to shoot, not just to blow bullets downrange as fast as possible, so those "primitive" loads went where they had to go.

Jim
 
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