W231 & HP-38 Question

L

LBussy

New member
It's been established that this is the same stuff. I just wanted to ask if they could be mixed or not. By mixed I mean "the powder measure is getting low and I'll just top it off with this other one" kinda work. I am at the end of an 8# canister of 231 and all Cabella's had was HP-38.

Seems like it should be okay but it's better safe than sorry.
 
My head says to not even consider it. Rationally thinking, though, if the loads that you are using are identical for both of them, yes, just top it off, and when that thing has emptied off all possible 231 start following data only prescribed for 38.

My totally unparanoid self says that you could just add the new powder in and give it a light shake to mix.
 
Unless it's from the same lot (very unlikely) you do not want to mix them. This holds true even on exact same powder. You can get fairly significant variations on burn rate between different lots of the same powder. Ideally, one would work up a new load with a new lot just to verify. If I'm not loading near max, I'll just load 5 with the new lot and verify similar velocities.

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I think the key is not being near max. Also, your accuracy needs. If you are a bullseye shooter then I'd probably not mix them. But for general shooting and even competition shooting I've done it. I'd stir it up to mix it well and load away.
 
egd said:
I think the key is not being near max. Also, your accuracy needs. If you are a bullseye shooter then I'd probably not mix them. But for general shooting and even competition shooting I've done it. I'd stir it up to mix it well and load away.
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I'm not anywhere near max, and this is not for bullseye shooting. It's just random range ammo to keep me shooting.
 
Unless it's from the same lot (very unlikely)
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On two separate occasions, I've seen where HP-38 and W231 had the exact same lot number. But yes, I do agree that it's "very unlikely;" I just wanted to share that anecdote.

To me, this isn't an issue of the two propellants having a different name on the label. Has nothing directly to do with that. It's about mixing lots, but . . .

. . . even when it's the same lot, I have - on several occasions - opened a fresh # of propellant (same lot), and the powder in the new canister weighs more (by hopper setting volume) than the old. I guess the powder loses moisture as it's being opened and used (??). Whatever the case may be, I've verified this phenomenon with myself several times.

So to directly answer the OP's question: I re-calibrate my hopper after purging the old propellant (I have been able to get down to next to nothing, and it still throw accurate charges), and replacing with the new.

Additionally: If we're talking hot, max pressure ammo, I'll back down a bit and do a new work up. (I don't have many recipes of this type.) Most the time, however, my recipes have so much safety headroom built in, that any variation in canister-grade lots would be a non-issue.
 
I do the same with '06 Garand loads by alternating 4895 and 4064 in the manner described. Running out of one but have the other on hand, when the one gets low, add the other on top of it, but not mixing. Not even necessary to weigh the incoming powder since the two charges are so much identical in weight. That procedure should bring on some negative comments. Last time I counted also had 10 fingers.
 
I would put the hp on top of the 231. I never work up a load when switching lot numbers of the same powder unless I'm at max. I would want to Make sure the powder drops weigh right by sampling some throws, but that's SOP anyway
 
Astocks2622
"You can get fairly significant variations on burn rate between different lots of the same powder."

Astocks2622....can you explain how much significant burn rate variations you have experienced was it hotter, slower, if so by how much.
 
Just use up the old powder, then start in with the new. In this case, there is no good reason to mix them, but there are some good reasons not to do it.
 
This was interesting to read . I'm on my last little bit of 2lbs of hp-38 and recently bought a 4lb jug of 231 . I had been considering starting a thread about this topic . Not the exact same but rather , if they are the same can I just keep loading the same charge weights using 231 I've been loading the HP-38 at for both my 9mm and 45acp loads . I'm right around max charge on a couple of them . 6.0gr pushing 200gr PLRD & PLHP . I have a 9mm load that is around max as well .

It seems it's best to just drop down some and work back up which I will do .
 
LBussy,

No problem mixing the two since, as you said, they are the same powder with a different label. However, rather than mixing them in your powder measure, I would suggest you add what little is left of your old powder to the new powder cannister. And, No, you do not get "fairly significant variations on burn rate between different lots of the same powder". Cannister grade powder is tested to make sure it falls into a very narrow range of burn rate.

Don
 
Thanks for all the comments, thought and advice.

These are minimum loads for target practice/range work only. The 231 I am finishing off is a couple years old but kept in a conditioned space with desiccant on top so I'm fairly certain it was kept fresh.

My concern was being frugal and not wasting the last part of the 231 that might not meter correctly since there would be so little left in the hopper. I did what USSR suggested: added the little I had left into the HP-38 and shook well to homogenize. I'm sure someone will tell me my teeth are now bound to fall out but I was willing to chance it. :)

I don't have a chrono yet so I'll just have to live with the variation. I'll check some next time I am at the range and validate they are similar in performance to the 231 rounds I have loaded. Yes, worst case I am pulling bullets but I think I'll be ok. Most of my range work lately has been at decision targets, rapid fire (I love our new range!) so a slightly larger grouping is not going to affect me.
 
Astocks2622 said:
Unless it's from the same lot (very unlikely) you do not want to mix them. This holds true even on exact same powder. You can get fairly significant variations on burn rate between different lots of the same powder. Ideally, one would work up a new load with a new lot just to verify. If I'm not loading near max, I'll just load 5 with the new lot and verify similar velocities.
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With modern production powders, different batches of powders are mixed at the factory to get consistent burn rates. Most handloaders I know, do not bother to "work up" new loads when they open a new canister of the same powder because of this. Painters mix new cans of paint with cans almost gone to reduce the difference in color between lots. Same thing happens when you mix powders. Any slight variance will be reduced because of the mixing. Only times I would be hesitant about mixing two canisters of the same powder would be if one had a significantly different manufactured date.......and I'm talking several years, or if I was unsure of the source of the older powder as to it's age and how it was stored.

I used to "work up" loads from new cans of powder but found it wasn't worth the time......at least for me with the powders I use, in my guns. This is not only for range ammo, but for hunting ammo where accuracy and consistency is important to me. FME, I wouldn't hesitate a second from mixing W231 and HP38 from different lots as long as their production dates were within this decade, within 5 years of each other and both had been stored properly, and I doubt very much if any one could tell any difference from ammo produced before and after, much less consider it unsafe. But folks should do what they are confident in and comfortable doing.
 
How long has W231 and HP-38 been the 'same' powder? I know it is now, in fact, the online published data is identical, but it always wasn't the same. The OP says his is a 'couple of years old' so I suspect it is common manufacture. Throwing the last dab of Unique on top of a new can of Unique is one thing, mixing what might be two different powders is another.

And everything isn't apples to apples... I use IMR4064. As I understand it, the 1# cans have a different source than the 8# can... I don't know how much of a difference that makes, but I can tell you I'm not going to find out.
 
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