voting: thoughts and a question

samoand

New member
Something disturbing came across my mind as I was reading the thread '"Never Again:" A warning to Jews and Americans' http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204589. The disturbing part was that most folks argue not who's better of the two, but who's worse - all with solid arguments. By the time I was done reading it was easy to concede: both parties are corrupted, unable to lead, enjoy power much more than is healthy for someone actually entitled with power, and would sell their mother for few electoral votes. Embrace it. Done. This seems to be fair representation of public opinion, both within and outside of this board.

What now? Do you expect that things will change? It's a serious question, even though it sounds banal: if you do go and vote, you must hope for something? Or do you pick lesser of two evils at this point?

I kinda have a thing or two to say regarding this matter, but wanted to get general feeling on the subject first.
 
Well, when Bush took office I was delighted. He did things and acted so differently from Clinton. I was all for him getting re-elected after the first four years, especially in contrast to who he was running against. I respect how straightforward he is. I'm impressed by how personable he is. When you hear him speak you know exactly what he's saying he intends to do whether you agree with it or not, very little dancing around the issue. He's willing to stand up and state what he thinks is right and what we should do even if it pisses off a lot of people and I respect that.

Yeah, I still like George Bush.

BUT... I also think there is room for improvement. I don't like the patriot acts, while I think the Iraq war was necesary I do not like how he sold it to us and the world. I think that he's done some severe damage to Republican relations with the American people and to American relations with the world. Some of those same good qualities have ended up causing trouble. I also think he has spent too much time worrying about gay people and not enough worrying about illegal immigrants.

He's not perfect at all, but given the same choice of him or Kerry, I'd still vote Bush. The opposition would have had to have been a moderate of strong character and that Kerry was not. I may not love everything Bush has done but I can still respect the man and that matters.



Can things change? I don't know, we'll see who is running in 08. I'd love to see the libertarians make some strides but let's face facts, it's going to be Republican V Democrat again. The Republicans have some real upstanding people I'd love to see on the ballot. McCain, Powel, or Rice. Powel and Rice havn't expressed an interest in running, still if we're ever to have a black or female president either one of them would be a good one. I'd rather not see Cheney on the ballot, a bit too infamous already.

The Deomcrats in contrast have some scary options. What names have we heard? Hillary? Dean? Teddy? EEEP :eek: Maybe we could talk Zell Miller into making a run for it.
 
samoand - When I go to vote, it does feel like I am voting for the lesser of two evils. Kind of sad.

Cowman - I am with you on your evaluation of Bush. I feel that he needs to work on his public relations. I am not sure what he is trying to accomplish with this latest port sale deal. He is alienating himself from many of his supporters. In the end, the port deal could hurt the Republican party in the next election.
 
What now? Do you expect that things will change? It's a serious question, even though it sounds banal: if you do go and vote, you must hope for something? Or do you pick lesser of two evils at this point?

Not anytime soon. Most people are still under the attitude that "a third party vote is a wasted vote". I'd like to see the Libertarians mature into a capable party but it's not going to happen this time around. And before the GOP supporters start hopping up and down: there are too many irreconcilable differences between the Republicans and Libertarians to simply "shift the party back to it's roots" or whatever the catch phrase is.


Maybe we could talk Zell Miller into making a run for it.
I voted for him as Gov when I lived in Georgia but I wouldn't want him running the country. Great man but his religion been spilling into his office more and more in recent years and he has this idea that "decency" is a quantifiable thing that should be controlled by the government. Zel would be a great pro-gun president but with him the first amendment would fly out the window as fast as the second would under Hillary.
 
In my years I can't count on one finger a politition I would trust. Like it or not they are all crooks who haven't been caught yet. Both sides are criminals and 911 just proved it. Every politition swore an oath to protect this country and not one had the honor to resign after they let us be attacked.

Everyone could see it comming from the first attack on the twin towers all the way through our embasies and the Cole. Yet they all stood by and let 3,000 Americans die and sent another 2500 to die in a war thet they could have prevented.

It matters little their stand on guns or abortion when it comes to killing our citizens by their neglect.

Voting scandel after voting scandel means the corruption goes deep into both parties and I won't waste time at the poles. It just gives them power to use your name as someone who voted while they rig the poles to get the outcome they want.

Our prisons should be full of polititions.

25
 
I've become cynical over the years.

Voting doesn't have much appeal. Donating to campaigns, on the other hand... volunteering on a phone bank the week before an election...that will be worth more than one vote.

Problem is, I haven't had more than a handful of candidates (mostly local) that earned enough of my respect to allow me to volunteer my time.

I think the trend is downward.

Argie
 
I haven't been excited about a candidate since Reagan. I voted for our current president twice, but I wouldn't call him a conservative. I am happy with his court appointments, the war, and tax cuts, but we need border security, and spending is way out of control. Our governer here in Mo.(Blunt) had to make the tough choices to bring spending under control. He made the needed cuts even though it probably will mean he doesn't get re-elected. I wish G.W. would show that kind of leadership. I hope we get better candidates to choose from next time.
 
Voting scandel after voting scandel means the corruption goes deep into both parties and I won't waste time at the poles.

Complaining and not voting does what to resolve the problem? Unfortunately this seems to be a typical attitude for the average American. I am too powerless, too lazy, too wrapped up in my own existance, etc., to do anything about it. If I sit back and complain loud enough, maybe someone will finally hear and correct the problem. If all we do is piss and moan we get exactly what we deserve. If the Founding Fathers had used our tactics, we would still be flying the Union Jack.
 
If the Founding Fathers had used our tactics, we would still be flying the Union Jack.

Those were different times and different men, both have changed tremendously. I find it better to just live life and move on because people have shown me for the last 54 years that they don't care.

25
 
I've voted Republican in every election I've been able. '04 was the last time (at the national level) I'll be doing that. Every cycle, we're told about how "Republicans are the gun-owners' party!", and that's BS. They're the party of "not raping y'all beyind the status quo"...

Y'all remember the ad during the 2000 election, where some bigwig from the NRA was saying "If Bush wins, we'll have an office in the White House"? Well, he won... what have they been doing with that office, ordering pizza?

If the Republicans want my vote for POTUS, they'll need to actually DO something for it. Making an attempt on NFA or GCA, or removing the '86 mg ban. Putting some form of reciprocity for CCW under the full faith and credit clause. SOMETHING that is actively pro-gun, and not merely trying to keep the antis at bay...

We (gun owners) are like that innocent young girl, and the Republicans have been the smooth-talking older boyfriend: they've made all KINDS of promises to get us to "put out", and we haven't held 'em to those promises. That old saying kinda holds true: "why buy the cow if you're getting the milk for free?". They've BEEN getting the milk for free (actually, I think we've been paying them to take it)... so why should they put forth any effort?
 
Much as I hate to admit it, . . . our country is going the wrong way, . . . but it has been doing that since 1932 (that I know of, . . . )

We went from the: personally responsible, personally adaptable, personally effective, "pull ourselves up by our own bootstraps when necessary" country to a non responsible, non adaptable, non effective, "make another federal program to fix this problem" nation.

Forcing ALL politicians to accept a paycheck equal to the average pay of an auto worker on one of the big 3 assembly lines would be a start.

Dissolving any and all government retirement systems except social security would be a good second step.

Mandating that all social security funds go into a separate s/s fund that cannot be touched for anything else would be good.

Dissolving the BATF, IRS, and American participation in the UN would help.

Replacing income tax with a flat 10% national sales tax (split 60 fed, 40 state) wouldn't hurt.

Forcing insurance companies to pay for the claimants they have swindled and wriggled out of over the years when any real disaster comes would be good.

But most of all, . . . somehow figuring out how to get something above 25% participation in elections I really think would do the most good. Then, maybe the crooks would have to really get a majority, . . . not just some 13% "larger than the other guy" minority.

May God bless,
Dwight
 
As closely divided politically as the country is, it would not take much of a shift in the vote to change the balance of power.

And that is why I got a bad feeling about the expanding scandal over electronic voting and the evident ease with which vote tallies can be diddled. I think the legitimacy of our entire system rests on the electoral process.
 
How did it come to this? How the whole country did slowly and gradually, step by step, turned into direction that seemed unfeasible and unrealistically detrimental even fifty years ago? The answer is fairly simple if you can analyze patterns.

Politicians, in mass, are liable to all defects of other humans - including greed and addiction to power. This is a very interesting case of addiction, interesting in that it has no limits. Food, water, sex, alcohol, traditional narcotics - all those cravings have a cutoff point, but not the power. Otherwise there would be no wars as wars are always provoked or started by people who already possess much power but aspire for more. There is no hope that official medical science would any time soon investigate power as extremely powerful and interesting narcotic: subjects for this research would reside among top elite of the world, which makes making them available for research a losing proposition from get go. I don't mean to spread this notion over all politicians, just like I wouldn't suggest that all people without exception are prone to flu or alcoholism. More so: every once in a while a special group of people, unselfish and immune to the disease - at least temporarily, perhaps - break the ice to the top and leaves a mark and, being able to recognize the dangers of the narcotic, hands down adequate protocol to guide their contemporaries and their children into the future. Founding fathers might've been one such group. Some of the rules stated by the Constitution clearly indicate that they had very little faith in personal impeccability of the politicians of the future, and rightfully so. Politicians may not run their numbers in millions, yet they still make a statistically valid sample to not put much confidence in their joint excellence.

Now, combine this observation with another one: the more country leans to the left, the more power it gives to those in control, and draw your own conclusions. Mine is this: Reps or Dems, right or left - give them time, and they will jointly move left as a mass. With only two parties being in the picture for years and years, with no healthy competition on horizon, there is no doubt that the whole country will be shifting left until the dead end, and most of you old-timer folks have been witnessing this for decades. I have noticed enough of "Reps are not the same party they used to be" to deem this as an accurate forecast of things to come; I kinda envision the observation "Reps are now approximately what Dems were a decade ago" coming around every decade or so. I also envision bunch of other things, most of them not pleasant: further distribution of wealth from middle class to welfare recipients to the point of leveling them up as it's close to happening in Europe, infringing on personal freedoms, protecting US workers through non-economical means and consequently losing markets due to increased costs of production, gradually losing edge in international food chain, and last but not least - engaging in more wars to cover up the mess and make ends meet.

One thing that may stop this process is, as it is both in business and in politics, engagement of healthy and less predictable competition. And what's stopping it is that notion shared by most Americans that a vote given to a small party is a wasted vote. And that's where I firmly believe that most Americans are dead wrong, particularly in current situation of country being approximately evenly divided. And here is why.

Mathematically speaking, there are only two options: your vote either makes difference, or it doesn't. If it doesn't, there is no harm in wasting it anyway, but if it does... especially when joined with few thousand votes of your confederates... That immediately puts your party, no matter how small, on the map and makes it a highly sought after absorption target for a party with closest platform. Simple example in case: Remember Florida 2000? If 1% of Reps indicated their intention to vote Libertarian, we just might have had a Libertarian in the Cabinet today.

Practices of parties joining and consolidating based on results of polls, politicians exiting races and giving their votes to other politicians in exchange for positions in government, were around for just about as long as electoral games were around. It's an old and blessed tradition which fades into oblivion for exactly this reason: because somehow this notion of unpopular vote being a wasted vote spreads further and further into general US public. In all this excitement we forget that unlike a business, a political party can't make its way into mainstream by running 24/7 commercials on popular channels, and really, making a party tactically sound is a two way street.

A natural question would be: what if they wouldn't join even if coalition is essential to secure a victory? Wouldn't it be a wasted vote then? Surely, stranger things happened in history. One good example is Germany of 1932 - when Communists and Social-Democrats wouldn't unite and thus left Nazi victorious. But this was a very special case, with Communists being fully controlled by USSR and the order not to unite handed down to them directly from Moscow to pursue some veiled goals which are outside of the scope of this discussion. Apart from that... I'd say that a party as inflexible as unable to compromises doesn't deserve to win anyway, and is certainly not a true representative of majority vote - as simple as that. Let the other side have it. It will still come to that, only approximately a decade later...

I'm not associated with a party, and not promoting a particular platform. Just trying to share what seems like common sense about elections in general. I guess the bottom-line is this: by voting for lesser of two evils, you only slightly delay the greater evil - as it will come down to it still, and sooner than you may expect. At this point, US public would be doing much greater service to itself by voting for what they truly believe in as opposed to the closest popular choice, and let the politicians sort it out through mergers. It's a paradigm change, but it better happen. Do people need to be lured to this idea as beneficial and possibly necessary? Sure.

But hey, I'm doing my part by writing this post :cool:

Best regards to all.
 
They all suck out loud! On a different note,if you look to the upper right on your reply page you will see a spell check.Might I suggest we employ this simple tool.Its hard to take someones reply seriously when there are so many spelling errors.I would not want the anti gun nuts who do read these posts,to see us as uneducated gun toting meat heads:D
This was not meant to offend anyone.Just a general statement.
 
American4guns

Out of curiosity, I copy/pasted the whole page into MS Word. Guess what? Your post takes the cake in terms of red-underlined words per line (although all those underlines relate to lack of spaces between sentences) :D Not to rub it the wrong way, just smirking at the situation.

Your point is absolutely correct though.
 
Silence...
...yada yada yada... One thing that may stop this process is, as it is both in business and in politics, engagement of healthy and less predictable competition. And what's stopping it is that notion shared by most Americans that a vote given to a small party is a wasted vote. And that's where I firmly believe that most Americans are dead wrong, particularly in current situation of country being approximately evenly divided. And here is why. ...yada yada yada...
Agree? Disagree? Don't care? Not concerned enough to read through less than fascinating jabber?
 
LOL and I used the spell check,however it just checks spelling.Not construction:mad:
My vote is to tar and feather all politicians and elect a blue collar president.
 
tar and feather all politicians and elect a blue collar president
there may be not enough feather to go around :)

I might've made the point too obscure... the point was that giving your vote to an unpopular party makes a lot of sense even if the party stands no chance. Just trying to test the logic by throwing it at folks here, but not finding much success...
 
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