Vietnam Vintage M-16 vs. AK-47

Billy Bremner

New member
This question is posed to Vietnam combat veterans (and others with similiar experience) -

Were the early generation M-16 rifles prone to frequent jamming and failing? If so, why?

I have heard tell that many a dead soldier was found with his cleaning kit open and his M-16 disassembled. Is this true?

Did many soldiers discard their M-16 in favor of a Soviet/Chinese made AK-47?

What are your impressions of the 2 weapons? What are the pros/cons of each?

Thank you for your contributions.

Wm.
 
From my experience serving with many Viet Nam Veterans, these stories are few and far between. If you assemble this account (I don't doubt at least one of the +52,000 was KIA in this manner) along with the fact cleaning kits were not issued until the rifle had been in country for some time, you will see a fallacy.

The majority of soldiers not only liked the M16 for its close-in damage that was greater than the M14, they also like the fact 2x the ammo could be carried.

Discarding an M16 in favor of an AK was downright dangerous. In close combat, one could be mistaken for the enemy by just rifle sound/look alone. The few that used battlefield acquired arms were Special Forces members and the like. Rank and file USA/USMC kept their rifles.
 
mythology and then some

I can't speak for anyone but myself and my own unit, 1st Cav.

The early models had major problems before they chromed the chamber and barrel to compensate for the tropical environment, but that was back in the very early to mid '60's. We all had the A1 models with the chormed chambers and barrels so jamming was a seldom thing and usually due to sloppy PM or a bad maggie. But the stories just keep on rolling in about throwing your 16 away for an AK or a whole squad of dead GI's with cleaning rods in their hands, uh huh. Never saw it happen. That doesn't mean it never did, but ...

As for me, I always used to carry a s***load of extra ammo, since running out was one of my big phobias (getting bit on the foot by a Krait on the way to the latrine was the other big one).

I'm not sure anyone in their right mind would want to count on enough convenient NVA or VC casualties with full bandoleers for your primary defenive weapon. In that kind of environment you don't take chances unless you had to.

Besides MSgt. Kato would have put his boot up anyone's a** sideways if he caught them dropping their rifle for an AK.

I think that stories like these are a lot more popular with drug store cowboys and phony gun show commando's than they are with guys that were there.

Just my opinion though.

Don P.
 
Source: Weekly Standard
Published: 14 Dec 2001 Author: Bo Crader
Annie, Get Which Gun?
The M-16 versus AK-47 debate rages on. Experts step in to set the record
straight.

MY RECENT ARTICLE comparing the AK-47 to the M-16 has elicited a
substantial number of personal anecdotes, expert opinions, and gun-nut
testimonials. Readers seem split when it comes to which assault rifle they
prefer. One Vietnam vet suggests he's been spoiled by the M-16 and finds
the AK-47 "unpleasantly sloppy to shoot," while an Army captain says the
"M-16 is the biggest piece of junk ever foisted on the American soldier."
One 26-year military policeman would "rather carry a good AK-47 than an
M-16 any day of the week," while an Air Force Lieutenant Colonel writes
that he would "take the M-16, hands down."

So, which is the superior infantry rifle? I've sorted through reader mail,
read countless government reports, and traded war stories with a couple of
old grunts in an attempt to clear up some disputes and answer the question
once and for all.

One writer, an Army attorney and critic of the M-16, argues that only
Annie Oakley could engage targets at 500 yards with an M-16. Not quite:
Marine recruits at Parris Island train with the M-16 by firing on
human-sized targets at 500 yards. The range advantage afforded by the M-16
is ideal for troops on the defensive with large, open killing zones. "In
the mountains and the sparse open terrain that covers much of
Afghanistan," writes Terry Gander in the upcoming edition of Jane's
Infantry Weapons, "extended effective ranges are almost certain to be
demonstrated as more important" than any other consideration.

At the same time, Frank Hanner, director of the National Infantry Museum
at Fort Benning, Georgia, suggests the value of the M-16's half-kilometer
range might be overrated. "Most combat generally takes place between 100
and 400 meters," Hanner reports. "Unless you're in the mountains," he
suggests, "the M-16's additional range doesn't pay off."

Other writers took issue with the M-16's stopping power, many citing an
episode in Mark Bowden's "Black Hawk Down" as evidence that the M-16 is,
in fact, a pea-shooter. "Black Hawk Down" recounts the story of American
troops in Somalia in 1993 surrounded by a numerically-superior force of
AK-47-wielding guerrillas. Sergeant First Class Paul Howe, armed with the
CAR-15, a 5.56mm infantry rifle similar to the M-16, notes that a number
of Somalis, after being hit center mass, simply got back up to continue
fighting. "It was like sticking somebody with an ice pick," Howe said.
"The bullet made a small, clean hole, and unless it happened to hit the
heart or spine, it wasn't enough to stop a man in his tracks."

This nightmarish situation--hitting the enemy dead center only to have him
get back up--is explained largely by Howe's ammunition, according to
William Atwater, director of the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum and a technical
adviser to Bowden on "Black Hawk Down." The ammunition used by Howe has a
"green-tipped tungsten carbide penetrator," Atwater explains. These
specialized rounds are "heavier than normal rounds, much more stable, and
designed for penetrating steel helmets or going through flak jackets at
500 yards." Alan Killinger, a museum specialist also at the U.S. Army
Ordnance Museum, elaborates in grim detail: Standard M-16 ammunition
"enters the body and stands up, turns on its side, rips through flesh and
organs," and tears a gaping exit wound. Green-tipped rounds, because they
have a more stable flight, generally won't tumble inside the body at
distances of less than 300 yards.

Even with the green-tipped rounds, Atwater argues the stopping power of
the M-16 should be more than adequate. "Many of the Somalis were hopped up
on drugs" and didn't immediately succumb to their wounds, Atwater
continues. "But they eventually went down--we're talking about getting up
and taking a couple steps--before they died from internal bleeding."

Another common complaint about the M-16 is its reliability. A reader
"who's had to hump everything from the M-16 to the M-203 to the M-60"
notes the weapon's "low reliability" and says that "the advantages of an
M-16 are moot if it stops firing because it's dusty or muddy." Another
soldier calls the M-16 "a finicky weapon [that] hates the dirt and must be
treated with care." Quite true. The small tolerances that give the M-16
its range, accuracy, low recoil, and handy ergonomics also tend to clog
with dirt and mud. Referring to the M-16's notorious reliability problems
in Vietnam, Atwater explains that "the M-16 was deployed without proper
testing. Troops were given low-grade ammunition [that] fouled the chamber
and firing mechanism." Moreover, the M-16 was "rumored to be self-cleaning
. . . troops didn't have cleaning gear or proper instruction in
maintenance."

Since Vietnam, however, new versions of both the M-16 and its ammunition
have been introduced that have corrected such mechanical problems. "I
don't know of any problems now," Atwater explains. Heasley insists "the
M-16's reliability is as good as the soldier who takes care of it."

It does sound like an annoyance. "In Afghanistan, Marines clean their
M-16s three times a day because the dust is so fine," Killinger says.
Almost in the same breath, however, he adds that with the latest M-16s,
weapon maintenance is "not that big of a deal. If you keep your weapon
clean it will work for you."

Did American troops in Vietnam prefer the Soviet-made AK-47s to their own
recently-issued M-16s, as I wrote? A number of readers say such stories
are urban--er, tropical--legends. Air Force Lieutenant Colonel Sterling
Price says "the Vietnam example of ditching M-16s for AK-47s" was "true. .
. [but] temporary" once early problems with the weapon were resolved.
Another reader, Gary Owen, says such weapon-swapping would be suicidal in
the field: Because the two weapons make distinctive sounds, "shooting an
AK-47 might draw fire from [U.S.] troops." Another Vietnam veteran
concurs: "If you were in a firefight in the bush and heard an AK go off
nearby, you shot at that position."

"By 1969 or 1970," Atwater adds, "shooting an AK-47 [in a firefight] was
disobeying a direct order and grounds for court-martial." So it is safe to
say that regardless of the M-16's initial performance any rifle-swapping
was short-lived, so to speak.

So, which is the superior weapon for the lance corporal fire-rushing Tora
Bora?

Eugene Stoner, designer of the M-16, reportedly admitted to Mikhail
Kalashnikov, namesake of the AK-47, that "your gun is more reliable than
mine. It's simpler." Was Stoner throwing in the towel? Maybe. But he might
have just felt sorry for the poor Russian. After a reported 40 to 50
million AK-47s were produced and distributed worldwide, all he saw was a
modest government pension and a 150,000 ruble (read: paltry) award, while
Stoner went on to become a multi-millionaire. Kalashnikov certainly had
reason to be bitter.

Heasley's verdict: "In my opinion the M-16 in the hands of a well trained
soldier is a more effective weapon than the AK-47, which is designed for
the less sophisticated 'soldier.' "

"The M-16 is a super-accurate rifle," explains Steve Shriner, a spokesman
for Soldier of Fortune magazine. "It's a superior weapon for sighting and
accuracy. [It] dominates firefights, but, in combat, it's six one way and
half a dozen the other." Point well taken. Choosing a weapon is a luxury
few can afford when Charlie's gotten through the wire or Osama bin Laden's
head pops into your field of fire.
 
This nightmarish situation--hitting the enemy dead center only to have him
get back up--is explained largely by Howe's ammunition, according to
William Atwater, director of the U.S. Army Ordnance Museum and a technical
adviser to Bowden on "Black Hawk Down." The ammunition used by Howe has a
"green-tipped tungsten carbide penetrator," Atwater explains. These
specialized rounds are "heavier than normal rounds, much more stable, and
designed for penetrating steel helmets or going through flak jackets at
500 yards."

Funny, doesn't this sound like the basic 62gr NATO SS109 "green tip" 5.56x45 ammunition that has been issued to all troops for quite some time now?

Also, not to knock the M16, but didn't the military switch to the 1:7" barrel to stabilize the longer SS109 ?
This Vietnam "meat-cleaver" effect was achieved by both the 1:12" barrel twist and the 55gr pill.
 
I am not an expert on the subject but after reading this I decided to spend my cash on SAR-1s and M-1s and put off the Bushmaster until I had the cash for some more delicate toys.

The first two explain some of the technical and political issues surrounding the whole process of deploying the new rifle during the Viet Nam war. Iis ain't pretty but is very informative.


The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam (part 1):
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/index.html

The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam (part 2)
http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/summerof67.html
 
those jouster guys are wooden stock riflemen

the ARs major problems got fixed in the 60's

This is a rifle platform that has been in active duty for more than 30 years
 
I have a friend who is a Marine Vietnam vet. He was initially issued the M-14, then the M16. The first one he had was a jammomatic, and he begged and pleaded to get his M-14 back. He got it back until the second run of M-16s came in - which worked "OK". He still much prefered his M-14 to anything else they gave him.
 
My Uncle was in Nam...

He was in country early on in the 1960's. He said that the M16 he was issued was a POS. He recently tried out an AK's (pre89 Norinco) and was very impressed to say the least. It was the first time ever fired one. :eek:
 
Was in-country in 69-70...The ammo was fixed by then, we had cleaning kits which we used, never had a particular problem. Loved the small round( I always carried beau coup ammo) and after humping .30 cal M60 ammo never wished for a bigger round. The 16 shot straight and had killing power out past 400 yds, was light ( a VERY important feature) and lastly, as metioned above, we always fired at the sound of an AK.
 
Bill

I served with the 173rd Airborne Brigade (Sep) in Vietnam 1968-69 with a Light Infantry MOS 11B. On my first mission I was a rifleman for three days then inherited the M-60 slot, which I carried for the next 4 months.

When I was promoted to Buck Sargent I took over a rifle squad as a squad leader at which time I carried the 16. I also worked as a team leader for a Hawk Team (ambush team). M-16 and I also carried an M-79 at the same time on occasion.

I needed up my tour as an Infantry Platoon Sargent carrying an M-16.

That's my background and hopefully I can answer your question as I saw them in a combat environment.


Were the early generation M-16 rifles prone to frequent jamming and failing? If so, why?

From what I had heard before going to Vietnam was the M-16 was prone to jamming (not ejecting the spent case). I had concern about this and one of the 21 men in my replacement group had been told if you take a M-60 belt link and clip it to the barrel of the rifle and then you could thread a cleaning rod from it into the carrying handle. Sounded good to me. You could tell the new guys with the threaded cleaning rods. The old timers told us that wasn’t necessary, as they never had any major problems with jamming. But we knew better what did these old timers know?

As I’ve said many times on the board I never had my M-16 jam or never knew of any in my platoon jamming. The most magazines I ever put through my 16 in one firefight were 12-13 loaded to 18 rounds. My 16 never missed a beat.

I had total confidence in the M-16 and the only problems I ever had with my weapons was my M-60 stopped working in a firefight but this was my fault as I hadn’t tighten the gas cylinder plug enough and it had loosened. In another case while guarding a bridge we took a RPG round in front of the bunker and I opened with a Ma Duce at the back blast area and after 20-30 round the round started to spin off target which was due to a burnt out barrel.

I have heard tell that many a dead soldier was found with his cleaning kit open and his M-16 disassembled. Is this true?

I never saw this for myself but heard tells of this in the states. If it did happen I would think it wasn’t that frequent? The jamming problem was fixed by changing the composition of the powder used in the round. I later read the jamming was cased by a chemical that was used to persevere the ball powder for a longer period time.

Did many soldiers discard their M-16 in favor of a Soviet/Chinese made AK-47?

First of all in my unit you were not allowed to exchange your 16 for a captured AK even if you wanted too. Secondly I believe a commander would be negligent allowing it to occur. Think about re-supply. You’re in an extended fire fight and what would caliber of ammo would you send out to the troops. You probably couldn’t get 7.62x39 anyway.

Weight is a major concern when humping in the bush you can carry more rounds per lb. comparing the 5.56 NATO and the 7.62x39. When carrying the M-60 I had a 30 round belt chambered and carried another 300 rounds. If I had to do it all over again and had a choice I’d take the current SAW and 5.56 ammo. Weight really means something humping up and down mountians.

Our basic load was 22 magazines loaded with 18 rounds (396 rds). Squad leaders carried an additional bandoleer of 140 rounds.

I also heard that SF teams (US leader and South Vietnamese members) were planting in NVA ammo dumps rounds that were loaded with C-4. Touching one of these rounds off would diffidently get your attention.

I once talked with a SF guy from CCC that ran Recon teams into the border areas and they carried AK’s but the reason was they wanted to look like Charlie which made sense to me.

What are your impressions of the 2 weapons? What are the pros/cons of each?

AK-47, PROS
Reliable

AK-47, CONS
Muzzle heavy.
Sights stinks
Magazine change is slow
Selector switch stinks
Too short of stock
Round isn't effective as the M-193 ball

I hear this reliability stuff all the time how the AK is better but I’ve had and seen 16’s in paddies mud, monsoon season, dry season even worked a beach area (sand dunes) and never had a problem. When the trigger was pulled it went bang.

M-16, PROS
Reliable
Balances well
Light weight
Magazine change is fast and easy
Selector switch is easy to engage.
Fast handling
Good range 400 meters
M-193 ammo is lighter in weight (carry more)
More destructive than the 7.63x39 round. 55 gr. Bullet and 1:12” twist. Early M-16 had 1:14” twist which I like better because the bullet is less stable.

M-16, CONS
Rear Sight. The A1 worked fine for Vietnam but I think the A2 was a big improvement.

This is my take on the two rifles. Let me also say I won’t have a problem carrying a AK-47 in combat but If I had a choice I’d take the M-16.

If you take care of your rifle (clean) it will work when needed.

Have a good day.

Turk
 
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Funny, doesn't this sound like the basic 62gr NATO SS109 "green tip" 5.56x45 ammunition that has been issued to all troops for quite some time now?

No, the writer has it wrong. The M855 has a steel penetrator, not WC as reported.

Also, its not twist rate that made M855 ineffective, it was velocity out of the shorter length barrels. The 1:7 twist rate was specified for M856 tracer rounds as M855 (SS109) requires 1:9.

All FMJ bullets eventually yaw because of the great difference between the Reynold's number for air and tissue. To spin a bullet fast enough to be stable in tissue requires a twist rate of turns per inch, not inches per turn. Think of threading vs rifling. It cannot be done.

Furthermore, M855 with its steel penetrator at the front is less stable in tissue than M193 and has a built-in fracture point at the base of the penetrator. Tests have confirmed it too fragments but at ranges of 200 meters maximum when fired from the A2.

I've seen the M855 effect in recently displatched feral hogs and can confirm it is no different than M193.
 
it's true, many GIs did DIE from their M16s being jammed

I saw it on the history channel's (very nice) documentary on the M16. they stated many GIs died bec of their jammed rifles while being over-run by VCs. sometimes they (trying to un-jam their rifles) were shot less then 10 feet away by AK carrying VCs.
 
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Doesn't C4 detonate by an electrical charge? If so, filling a round with C4 would do nothing.

No, it just needs a good blasting cap placed correctly. Do it wrong or use a weak one and you get C4 spatters all over w/o detonation. BTW, it burns just like nitrocelluose gunpowders and is quite toxic. Its used had been used as a rat and mouse poison.

WC is tungsten carbide, W being the German name (Wolfram) for this element.
 
.357SIG


Your post

Doesn't C4 detonate by an electrical charge? If so, filling a round with C4 would do nothing.

C4 dentonates by using a blasting cap this cap can be set off either by a lited fuse or by a electrical charge. The blasting cap is what explodes the C-4.

We used C-4 to clear trees for LZ's. As a squad leader I carried the caps with fuse.

While guarding a bridge one time we packed a roll of barbed wire with C-4 and supended it under the bridge we then used Claymore cap and electrical device to set it off if need be.

So I would assume a primer would act as a blasting cap.

Turk
 
I doubt a rifle primer would set C4 off. The J8 caps used are much more powerful than a little blast of lead styphanate and usually contain several grams of RDX plus a booster.

Standard Claymore caps are equivalent to 8's as the explosive is just as insensitive as C4.
 
I would think it far more effective to fill the case with Bullseye....or sand. Either the rifle explodes, or even better, NOTHING happens when the trigger is pulled. The sabotaging of ammo was done on a small scale in the occupied countries during WWII.
It mainly occurred in factories that produced artillery shells. Just imagine pulling the cord on an 88' and......nothing. Most embarrassing!
 
The ammo sabotage was mentioned in one of John Plaster's books, SOG, they permanently attached the bullet to the case so the bolt would fire out the back of the rifle into the shooters face. They would leave resupply cases of 7.62 x39 with a few of the boobytrapped rounds where NVA would find them at the same time circulating official looking letters that the dangerous ammo problems had been resolved. Great read. They carried CAR's/xm177s and many other weapons including meat cleavers and bows.
http://www.ultimatesniper.com/catal...=7&ProductNumber=7&ProductCode=2&NewProduct=0
 
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