bubbaturbo
New member
I read something that described carrying a concealed weapon without a permit and in violation of law as a "victimless crime". Whaddayathink?
victimless crime?
- Thread starter bubbaturbo
- Start date
hankrearden98
New member
There is an old police saying that goes something like this: "No victim, no crime."
Adamantium
New member
I remember my mom once telling me about breaking rules that don't really hurt anyone. I believe the quote she used was "The only victim is yourself"
Sincerely,
Adam
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Self improvement is a hobby of mine
Sincerely,
Adam
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Self improvement is a hobby of mine
Permitless CCW isn't a crime at all, IMNSHO. Government at any level has NO authority to issue permits in order to exercise a right.
And yes, I practice civil disobedience in this (and other) regard. Of course, I don't recommend it unless you're willing to face the possible consequences.
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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
And yes, I practice civil disobedience in this (and other) regard. Of course, I don't recommend it unless you're willing to face the possible consequences.
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"The right of no person to keep and bear arms in defense of his home, person and property,
or in aid of the civil power when thereto legally summoned, shall be called into question.."
Article 11, Section 13, CO state constitution.
One of many victimless crimes, like: prostitution, illegal drug use, speeding, jaywalking, pornography, zoning law violations, etc. . . . .
Recomended reading: Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do
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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
Recomended reading: Ain't Nobody's Business if You Do
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“The whole of the Bill (of Rights) is a declaration of the right of the people at large or considered as individuals. ... It establishes some rights of the individual as unalienable and which consequently, no majority has a right to deprive them of.” -Alexander Addison, 1789
I would consider ccw a "victimless" crime. But deanf, you might want to rethink your views on victimless "illegal drug use." Seems to me a police dispatcher would have seen some doper neglect (or kill) his/her kids.Happens all the time. Also, just tonite I saw a sober "speeder" kill 2 innocents ( a cabbie & passenger) while on a "victimless" high speed run. Just an opinion.
Grandma thumped over the head for her social security money so the thumper can go buy more crack because HIS money ran out?
Crack babies?
Parents in a heroin-induced haze and forget to feed their kids-for days at a time?
Meth- or crack-induced rage that leaves innocents bleeding on the sidewlk?
Teenage runaway girls deliberately hooked on the drug du jour, then sent out to hook for their pimp--otherwise he doesn't give them any more dope?
Victimless crime, my furry hindquarters.
LawDog
Crack babies?
Parents in a heroin-induced haze and forget to feed their kids-for days at a time?
Meth- or crack-induced rage that leaves innocents bleeding on the sidewlk?
Teenage runaway girls deliberately hooked on the drug du jour, then sent out to hook for their pimp--otherwise he doesn't give them any more dope?
Victimless crime, my furry hindquarters.
LawDog
Keith Rogan
New member
Drug addicts commit crimes because their drugs are so expensive.
Why are they expensive?
Because we make them illegal and create a huge profit driven industry.
Then we make onerous laws against gun owners because drug dealers and addicts are busily shooting each other or us to get their money or protect their profits.
So we pass more laws....
Time to rethink this pattern.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Why are they expensive?
Because we make them illegal and create a huge profit driven industry.
Then we make onerous laws against gun owners because drug dealers and addicts are busily shooting each other or us to get their money or protect their profits.
So we pass more laws....
Time to rethink this pattern.
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Keith
The Bears and Bear Maulings Page: members.xoom.com/keithrogan
Can those of you who are for drug control and against gun control not see the inconsistency of your position? All of us who like guns know that the mantra "guns don't kill people, people kill people" is true. The individual behind the gun is responsible for how it is used, and no one else. The same holds true for drug use. By demonizing drugs you are saying that the existence of drugs causes some people to go bad, but what really causes them to go bad is them, and no one else. You are relieving the individual involved of his or her responsibility in the equation, and when this is done, all sorts of crazy individual rights violations can and will occur. This philosophy of vilifying objects is the same philosophy used by the anti-gun crowd, and its perpetuation will eventually cost all of us our guns. Personal resonsibility and personal freedom are concomitant; you can't suppress one without suppressing the other.
DAL
P.S. I hate drug use and I can't stand being around drug abusers.
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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
[This message has been edited by DAL (edited December 05, 1999).]
DAL
P.S. I hate drug use and I can't stand being around drug abusers.
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Reading "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal," by Ayn Rand, should be required of every politician and in every high school.
[This message has been edited by DAL (edited December 05, 1999).]
bubbaturbo
New member
Lawdog
I agree with you about the drugs, etc. but what do you think specifically about my original question, i.e., carrying concealed without a permit. Can you think of any way this could harm anyone? Is this a victimless crime?
I agree with you about the drugs, etc. but what do you think specifically about my original question, i.e., carrying concealed without a permit. Can you think of any way this could harm anyone? Is this a victimless crime?
Jeff Thomas
New member
DAL, thanks for the voice of reason. You're right - it is exactly the same logic.
I agree that carrying without a permit is certainly a victimless 'crime'. You can bet your own furry hindquarters that your local LEO would be damn happy you did so if you saved his life or some other innocent because of that 'crime'. And, it has happened.
But, Coinneach is right - better know the downside. If it is a felony, then you're taking a significant chance.
I agree that carrying without a permit is certainly a victimless 'crime'. You can bet your own furry hindquarters that your local LEO would be damn happy you did so if you saved his life or some other innocent because of that 'crime'. And, it has happened.
But, Coinneach is right - better know the downside. If it is a felony, then you're taking a significant chance.
Lawdog makes some excellent points, and true they all are. dal & Keith, I agree mostly with the drug / gun argument, although I still am anti drug /pro gun. The argument works with the drugs such as heroin, weed, they're in the same "danger" class as booze, should they be legalized. None of these drugs CAUSE violent behavior by themselves.And WHO CARES if somebody OD's or kills themselves with it.
Yet, there are 2 drugs that CAUSE EXTREME VIOLENCE, to the extent that mothers kill their babies, overriding thousands of years of evolution.Meth & PCP.
Think about it...have you ever heard of heroin, booze, marijuana causing a father or mother to burn, stab, or bite their baby to death? Me neither, and although it can cause neglect, violence comes from its procurement.
Meth and PCP, on the other hand, actually CAUSE psychotic behavior. If drugs are decriminalized or legalized, ALL of them will be, and then, for sure we will all NEED our firearms...
Well, enough of this serious stuff. I think I'll go grab a Coors and get my gear ready to go shoot tommorrow.
[This message has been edited by DAVE MOON (edited December 06, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by DAVE MOON (edited December 06, 1999).]
Yet, there are 2 drugs that CAUSE EXTREME VIOLENCE, to the extent that mothers kill their babies, overriding thousands of years of evolution.Meth & PCP.
Think about it...have you ever heard of heroin, booze, marijuana causing a father or mother to burn, stab, or bite their baby to death? Me neither, and although it can cause neglect, violence comes from its procurement.
Meth and PCP, on the other hand, actually CAUSE psychotic behavior. If drugs are decriminalized or legalized, ALL of them will be, and then, for sure we will all NEED our firearms...
Well, enough of this serious stuff. I think I'll go grab a Coors and get my gear ready to go shoot tommorrow.
[This message has been edited by DAVE MOON (edited December 06, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by DAVE MOON (edited December 06, 1999).]
I don't think that pro-drug control and anti-gun control are at odds with each other: the carrying,in itself, of a concealed firearm,wether illegally or legally, does not lead a person to commit acts of violence.The abuse of certain drugs often does. I don't see any inconsistency with this position. As for carrying a concealed firearm without a permit, the only "victim" is likely to be the carrier if he is caught.
I have questioned the idea of legalizing drugs will increase drug usage. It seems that once the profit is removed, the incentive to hook young kids, etc is eliminated. I also believe that a lot of the drug culture and use may be a 'forbidden fruit syndrom'. I really do not know how the decriminalization of drugs in certain Ruropean countries has affected the problem there. I understand that England has a program where drug prescriptions are given to users who buy the drugs at affordable prices with the intent of eliminating the need to engage in criminal activites to support the habit. I have read that the 'drug park' in the Netherlands (I think) was finally shut down because of the many deaths and other problems associated with it. But it seems that there has to be a realization that the 'drug war' like the Vietnam, Korean, prostitution, prohibition, etc, is lost and move on to other approaches. I understand that as many as 80% or so of prisioners in jail are there for a drug related crime including everthing from hooking, stealing or dealing to support the habit, through the cartel and mob run distribution, etc.... It seems that our PC politicans can't let go of trying to control the drugs with stiffer penalties anymore than they can realize that gun laws are only recoginized and obeyed by good citizens that should have the right to carry.
In my "other" life, I knew dozens of serious drug users. None of them victimized people. Ever. They were definitely addicts, but they had boundaries. There were just some things they would never do to support their habit. It was beyond their morality to do so. The effect of parents, maybe?
I've seen first-hand the disastrous effects that drugs can have on people's lives. Yes, those things that are used to justify the War on Drugs do happen to people. But how many people use drugs without becoming sociopaths? The answer is: Most of them, millions. They have jobs, they pay their taxes, they love their kids. What we see on the news is not representative of the vast majority of drug users, just as the gang-bangers aren't representative of the vast majority of gun owners.
On topic, some would say that breaking any law, no matter how innocuous, victimizes society in general, in that a society depends on the law-abiding nature of it's members in order to exist.
In terms of unlicensed CCW: Let's say you obey the law (the one that's not in the US Constitution), and decide not to carry because you don't want to "victimize society". Then a maniac slaughters a playground full of children, which you could have prevented had you dis-obeyed the law. Now is it a victimless crime, or is it a victimizing law?
[This message has been edited by boing (edited December 06, 1999).]
I've seen first-hand the disastrous effects that drugs can have on people's lives. Yes, those things that are used to justify the War on Drugs do happen to people. But how many people use drugs without becoming sociopaths? The answer is: Most of them, millions. They have jobs, they pay their taxes, they love their kids. What we see on the news is not representative of the vast majority of drug users, just as the gang-bangers aren't representative of the vast majority of gun owners.
On topic, some would say that breaking any law, no matter how innocuous, victimizes society in general, in that a society depends on the law-abiding nature of it's members in order to exist.
In terms of unlicensed CCW: Let's say you obey the law (the one that's not in the US Constitution), and decide not to carry because you don't want to "victimize society". Then a maniac slaughters a playground full of children, which you could have prevented had you dis-obeyed the law. Now is it a victimless crime, or is it a victimizing law?
[This message has been edited by boing (edited December 06, 1999).]