Vicious PC anti-South attack. Part II

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Danger Dave

New member
Okay, I just couldn't let this go without commenting on it...

1) The Stars & Bars is NOT the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia! The Stars & Bars is the national flag of the Confederacy. The Battle Flag is the St. Andrew's Cross. The Stars & bars had three stripes - two red and one white, with a blue field of white stars in the upper left hand corner.

2) Slavery only existed under the Confederacy for about four years, whatever flag you choose to represent it. Under the US flag, it existed for nearly 100 years, and under the British flag, even longer. Why is the St. Andrew's Cross the symbol people choose to associate with slavery? Remember, Lincoln's emancipation proclamation only freed the slaves in the states that had seceded, not the slaves in the United States! That came later.

3) The adoption of the Battle Flag in some of the Southern state flags was at least partially done as a token of rememberance of the Civil War & the people that fought & died for their respective states. If you'll look at the dates the flags were adopted, you'll find that they were all changed within 5 years of the centennial of the outbreak of the Civil War. Sort of a "We have not forgotten" statement.

Here in the South, I do see some who fly/wear the battle flag simply to offend others, however, I see many more who view it as a symbol of their heritage and the sacrifices of their ancestors.

However, I'm not opposed to removing the Battle Flag from the state flag, as long as it is replaced with the Stars & Bars, or even a symbol of our colonial heritage.

BTW, there's a group now that's pushing to remove all monuments to the Confederacy. I guess even the monument to the division of free black men who fought for Alabama would have to go. I can't believe they were fighting for slavery any more than I can believe your average "Billy Yank" was willing to die to end it.
 
The Rock couldn't pass it up either.

I have now lived in the south for more than half my life. (Navy brat) I couldn't live anywhere else. The south (and parts of the west) are the last bastions of freedom left in this country. The left coast could do us a favor and drop into the Pacific. I'd throw a party. Same for NE. For that matter, anything north of VA that is east of, say, Iowa.

I have come to utterly despise people that for some strange and totally unfathomable reason, assume to tell me what I should do. To qoute another WWF wrestler, SUCK IT!

If I don't like you, or what you say, I don't come up to you on the street and say, Hey! Quit that! I don't like it! While waving my gun around. That is what you (and you know who you are) are really doing. You are trying to enforce your will on somebody else. I can't even imagine what made you think you even have a chance of me giving your bass ackwards thought 1/1000 of a second of my time.

I may disagree with folks, but I will fight to protect our rights to disagree. Perhaps more pugnently, I will allow you to continue to suffer rectal-cranial inversion as long as you want, since it is your right both as a American and a person, to hold views and opinions that are totally wrong and hateful in another's eyes. I don't like you (and once again, you know who you are) but I will let you go about your life. Now let me and mine go about mine.

Let The Flag fly!!

TR

If it offends you, TFB. Clean up the south, buy a yankee a plan ticket home. You wear you X and I'll wear mine!!
 
Rock -

You need to quit beating around the bush. C'mon, just come right out and tell us how you really feel. (BTW, I ain't goin' home, if I can help it. I've come to the conclusion Ohio is a great place to be from.)

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"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein

[This message has been edited by mk86fcc (edited March 04, 2000).]
 
Erik (and I sincerely hope you will read this), I have slept on your comments for several nights now before replying, so I am my pretty level-headed usual self.
I think, unwittingly, you have slipped into a liberal frame of mind re: the flag issue. I say this because your posts seem to be replete with your desire to have your cake and eat it, too, and your willingness to revise or even blank out history to suit the shouts of a few and be PC, while taking away the right to freedom of expression by others. First, let me say that I, too, have lived across this nation as well as in foreign nations. I was born in the South AND raised in the state of my birth. And I am most likely older than you. So I, too, bring a very broad perspective to this forum.
I note with a question, that you believe the "rebel flag" is most often flown, sported, tattooed on, and/or stuck to the pickups of racists. My question is in two parts: Did you personally interview all citizens who chose to exhibit this flag to determine that most of them are racists, or did you only hang around those who were and extrapolated that "most" descriptor based on that comparison?
Secondly, I am amazed that, in one breath you claim to be all for freedom of expression, and then put binders on your claim ("when it is patently offensive to a large segment of society, take it down"). I was an adult already in the 60s. You know what was "patently offensive to a large segment of society" back then. To counter the patent offense du jour then, every day people were burning, ripping, spitting on, urinating and defecating on, and wearing the Stars and Stripes. Therefore, shouldn't we, by your standards, have abolished that hate symbol from our country?
Then you go on to tell us how our "pride does more damage than good to today's society." Well, I believe that constant, strident hearking back to a slavery system that has long since been abolished, is far more divisive than a quiet display of one's heritage floating on an afternoon breeze. The wound was healed long ago over the abolition of slavery. Now, for whatever monetary gain or 15 minutes of fame-seeking reasons, that scar keeps getting slashed open again and again. No wonder we are at each others' throats over a piece of cloth, for God's sake. And more salt is rubbed into the wound by statements comparing the Confederate Flag with the Swastika. That is such a non-sequitur of monumental proportions, especially to those of us who ARE old enough to have experienced the meaning and the intent of the swastika, who fought against its symbology. who lost loved ones in that good fight, and not just casually read of it in revised history books of your "today's society".
Lastly, for someone who claims to bring so much of life's experience to this forum, it is rather amusing that you so rightly know that the rest of the world views the Confederate Flag as a symbol of hate. It may come as a shock to you, Erik, but "most of the world" can identify the swastika and know all it represents. "Most of the world" is unable to rightly describe the Confederate Flag or its inception. They care little about it because it is not the same as the swastika and never will be. Hate is not an inanimate piece of cloth. Hate is a living, breathing beast within the human heart, and it is manifested by human actions.
 
Nancy,
I try to read just about everything here, much to the dismay of my family and friends. :)

As to the topic at hand, I'll refer you, and everyone else interested, to other forum member's posts who said it so well:

Deacon's post sums it up. It is hard to argue heritage in light of the arguements presented here. This more so than anything hits to the heart of the matter among minorities, and white guys like me.

Big Al' post where he brings up who in his state promotes the Confederate flag and how it makes him and others feel.

Foxfire points out that the few are ruining it for the rest. But these few are against the basic premise of equality. That's a big premise to side step in the name of state's rights.

Also, let's keep in mind that the issue at hand is the display of the flag from public buildings, which represent all Americans. What you fly from your home is one thing. What a state flies from its capital building, and other public buildings, is another.

Erik

It should be pointed at that I'm sure we agree on far more than any disagreements about this subject. :) If everyone in our forums agreed on everything, they would be venues for little more than patting our intellectual backs. :(
 
I think if the state votes to take it down then so be it, but when the gov't steps in, then you should let them make all the rules. I would rather have the state say, If you dont like it, go to another state.
 
I think that if we use the argument of "The few ruin it for the many" we are joining the liberals Full Tilt and putting ourselves a well greased portion of the slippery slope.... afterall, isn't it the few irresponsible gun owners who ruin it for the many ?? Isn't it the few criminals with guns that ruin it for the many law abiding gun owners?

Think about it.
 
Erik, I see once again signs that you have slipped into a liberal mindset on this topic, from your reply to me. Instead of answering the few pointed questions I addressed to YOU, you have deferred to others' posts, none of which answered my questions.
I am sure all of us are free to agree or disagree with others at one point or another. And you are correct in hoping for the ability of everyone to at least agree to disagree. However, when you post, we all read it and we might have questions for you in light of whatever you post. Please be equally cognizant of your responsibility to answer those questions yourself should you choose to respond, and not just refer back to others' responses. If you have an opinion, back it up yourself in your own words. That way it is very valid.
 
I only have one thing to add.

Imagine going downtown everyday and looking up and seeing that flag.
Now..Imagine being black and doing the same thing.
 
Mongrel, I do see it every day. In Atlanta, all the city buildings fly the pre-56 flag with the bars from the Stars & Bars, instead of the battle flag. The blacks I know here work under it every day. I'm not saying they don't want it changed, I'm just saying what flag is flying doesn't seem to affect them too much in their everyday lives. Like most of us, they have bigger problems to deal with - like mortgages, bills, kids, etc.

I wouldn't have a problem changing our flag, but it should be Georgia's decision, not Washington's and not Colorado's.

Now, imagine you had ancestors who died fighting for what they believed in. Imagine that a conquering army tore through your town destroying everything. Imagine that the "benevelant conquerors" plowed up the fields and slaughtered all the farm animals, with the intention of leaving your great-great-grandmother and her children - as well as the blacks that lived in the area - to starve. Now, imagine that people 1,000 miles away - descendants of the people who decided to start the war, burn your cities, destroy your families homes, etc. want you to just forget about it all - after all, it was all done in the interests of humanity...

Yeah, right. Like all wars throughout history, it all boils down to power & money. I think this discussion shows that it still does.

[This message has been edited by Danger Dave (edited March 06, 2000).]
 
Nancy,
I refered you to the posts of other members for two reasons:

1. They put it so well. Forums build upon one another's comments - to leave them out weakens the argument and takes mine, and others, out of context.

2. I'm irrelevant to the topic. Debate 101 stears away from getting personal. Degenerating into who I am, or who anyone else is, avoids the substance of what we are trying to get at - from both sides.

Mongrel66 makes an extremely important point.

Erik
 
You still have not answered my questions, Erik. I am sure if I asked Mongrel, to whom you like to defer, he would have no problem answering them. But I asked you because of your post. Getting someone else to talk for you is a very liberal tactic. So is circumlocution. I think you would fit in quite well with the politicians and statists crowds.
 
I also fit in well with "debate" crowds.

Rule #1 of a debate - it is not personal. The reason behind it is that people get distracted from the issues. I avoid "you" statementsas a rule, but will add one: You seem distracted by who I am more so than what I am saying. No? Look to your own posts...
 
Some food for thought.

There was a segment on the History Channel last night about the KKK. With few exceptions the flag that they were carrying WAS NOT the Confederate flag. Guess what flag 99% of them were carrying?

Why is there not a call to remove a flag that flew over a “racially prejudiced” nation for decades after Lincoln? Or the same flag that flew over a nation that violated every one of the “treaties” that it made with the native Americans?

Just my 2 cents worth.

Skyhawk



[This message has been edited by Skyhawk (edited March 07, 2000).]
 
Having been away for the last two weeks, I've just now caught up to this thread. So a few random thoughts from a man born and raised in the south.

YA'LL AIN'T FROM 'ROUND HERE, ARE YA?
Unless you were born, raised and lived the vast majority of your life in the south, you have absolutlety no idea of the Southern point of view. Don't waste your time trying to figure us out. You can't.

We live in a nation which praises and revels in its "Curtural Diversity". All members of all nationalities are allowed and even urged to embrace their heritage. Unless, of course, you happen to be Southern. Whereupon you are viewed as a stupid, bigoted redneck with the full approval of just about every other group that makes up this country. Now, just who is being the bigot here?
JUST WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TO DENY ME MY HERITAGE JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T AGREE WITH ME?

I am a Southerner. Born and bred, through and through. I too take pride in my heritage. Yet, all my life I've had to live with the opinions of "better people" who automatically assume that I am either stupid or a racist simply because of where I'm from.

These views became very apparant when I served in the Army. In Texas, I was accepted by the locals as a kindred spirt. In Maryland, I was shunned and dismissed as a stupid redneck. In Germany, I was cursed and hated as an American.
This reminds me of the old saying that goes just how stupid you are is directly related to where you happen to be standing at the time.

I also experienced a great deal of predjudice from my fellow soldiers. Oddly enough, I got along well with Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Westerners and other Southerners. But, for some reason I never really figured out, Most of the people from Northern (dare I say Yankee?) states imediately started looking down at me as soon as they heard my southern accent. I've been called redneck, hick, hillbilly, white trash and many other things by folks who didn't know the first thing about me.

My wife happens to be Italian. She is very proud of that fact. She flies an Italian flag, our home is decorated with Italian items. She is readily accepted by almost every one as sombody who takes pride in where she comes from. No problem.

Now my kids are half Italian, but full fledged Southerners. However we discovered early on that when we registered them for school we could pick up a few minor perks by listing them as being of "European decent" rather than being Southerners or for that matter simply Americans. Makes you think, hummm?

I've lived with who I am for some 45 years now. Frankly, I like me. I'm proud of who I am and where I came from. I'm proud to be a Southerner and likewise proud of the history of the Confederacy. To me, the Confederate Battle flag represents such values as Truth, Honor and Honesty. These things seem to hold little value in today's "politically correct" world and so that makes me an outcast. I can live with that. I won't compromise my principles based on the latest poll.

As for the issue of should or shouldn't the Stars and Bars fly over state buildings? That's for the people of that state to decide and none of your damned business.

JMHO

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Politically, Fashionably and Aerodynamically Incorrect!

[This message has been edited by Grayfox (edited March 07, 2000).]
 
A very good site for pictures of the many varieties of Confederate flags, visit
http://www.confederateflags.org/

Learn the difference between the Bonnie Blue, the "Stars and Bars" (First National Flag of the Confederate States of America), and the Fourth Bunting Issue of the Army of Northern Virginia (the commonly-referred-to "Battle Flag".)

Also learn the significance of the number of stars in the flag, and why some flags had 13 stars when there were only 11 Confederate states.

An interesting place to visit.
 
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