Vertical shot stringing?

H

Halfpint

New member
This weekend a couple buddies came out with their Mini-14s to do a little `plinking'. One of them has an older SS& Synthetic Mini-14 and the other has a new one. The one with the older one was consistantly producing 3/4" patterns at 100yds but the newer one no matter who was shooting was stringing vertically. (We even got out the heavy bench and the sandbags!) While some of the ammo we tried also opened up horizontally the general trend with the newer Mini-14 was towards the vertical stringing. (Tried almost a dozen different loads / brands of ammo thinking that it was just a case of of it being picky. Some of the ammo produced dead centre lines that you could lay a ruler on.) Has there been enough of a decline in QC and general `quality' in the time between the introduction of the Mini-14 and now that this is something common? Or do we have a problem with the bedding or something else?



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Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-
 
Gale or someone else might correct me but I recall hearing somewhere that older mini's have 1 in 12 twist barrels while newer ones have faster 1.in 7 twist barrels. (the faster twist to stabilize heavier bullets) Stringing vertcally is also a function of barrel heat.. is it possible with the change in rifling there was a change in the grade of steel used?? (maybe the newer barrels get hotter faster??)

Dr.Rob
 
Gale,
*I* was sort of expecting that it might be the case that it might be a bedding `problem'. However... {WAN GRIN!} One can always hope... I'll pass your suggestion along.

Dr. Rob,
Hmmmmmmm... While I have heard that there were some differences between really old `runs' of the Mini-14 and the newer `runs' I hadn't heard that one. It would be interesting to find out if that could also be part of the `problem'. I hope that Gale, or someone else, weighs in and can shed some more `light' on it as it was a very perplexing situation. (Especially since, except for the ages of the two actions, they were pretty much identical setups. [Though I never bothered to ask Steve if he'd done any bedding work on his or not. {FROWN!}])



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Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-
 
Dr. Rob: I took just enough metallurgy and thermodynamics courses to be dangerous...Anyhow, so far as I know as regards heat transfer, about the only difference in the rate of heating would be the thickness of the barrel. Steel is steel is steel, to a certain extent.

Now, there could be some problem with stress in the manufacturing process; I don't know. That is, as the barrel heats, whatever stress got built into it causes it to warp/bend in a way that creates vertical stringing.

Generally, however, whenever I've had vertical stringing, rebedding the fore-end part of the stock has cured the problem.

It seems to me that any rifle with a barrel-band is subject to this problem. The barrel heats at a different rate than the wood of the stock. The band clamps them together, creating stress.

Don't know if it's relevant, but I have a Sako which started out life with a Mannlicher stock and a barrel-band some six inches back from the muzzle. In a five-shot string, each succeeding shot was one inch lower than the preceeding. When I discovered the stock was two-piece, I got rid of the front piece and the barrel-band and cut the stock back. Floated it and shimmed it with wax paper. Groups went to a 5/8"-3/4" average, with the occasional 3/8" group...

What to do on a Mini? I dunno.

FWIW, Art
 
Art,
Thanks for the input! Since *I* have been fairly `lucky' with most of the guns *I* own this bit with the Mini-14s has been a bit perplexing. The more places we find to look for just what could be the `problem' is a great help. (And just *maybe?* I might eventually end up adding a Mini-14 `ranch' model to my collection if it turns out that it can be `tamed'. {GRIN!} After all one can't have too many `toys', can they? {CHORTLE!} Besides... There *are* times when a bolt action `varmint' rifle [A-Bolt w/ B.O.S.S. `Varminter', or `full tilt' `custom' `Varminter'] or a `full tilt' "assault weapon?" [AR-15, DR-200, AKx, or something of that ilk.] is just too much for the job. {SNICKER!})

Anyway... So far the concensus is that it may be a bedding problem and so we will start by looking there. Sounds like we have a good way to `bring in the new year' this next weekend if the weather out here holds good. Punching `long distance' holes in paper and the occasional `pot shot' at `pasture poodles' with friends. {BSE GRIN!}



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Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-
 
The original Mini14 had 1 in 10" twist, after 1988 twist changed to 1 in 7", and in 1994 (and all subsequent ones), twist was changed to 1 in 9". Ranch Rifles were the same. Reference is "Ruger & His Guns" by R. L. Wilson. A great book and essential to Ruger fans. :)
While I make no claim to being an expert, it would seem that the stocks on these two Mini14s could be switched and see if the new one strings vertically in the synthetic stock. If it doesn't, then it seems that bedding would be the answer or changing stocks. If it still strings vertically in the synthetic stock, then I would guess the answer would be to get a new barrel from Ruger. My experience with Ruger is, while most of his guns are OK out of the box, rarely there is one that is not good and Ruger has always stood behind all his guns and done whatever is needed to fix any problem.


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OJ
NRA LIFE MEMBER
Gun control is a steady hand and hitting with the first shot.



[This message has been edited by OJ (edited December 28, 1999).]
 
OJ,
Thanks for the info. I just finally dug out that book and another that I had on the Mini-14 and discovered most of what you mentioned. (Kinda nice that you people are reinforcing my limited research. Makes all the collecting and reading *much* more worthwhile. {GRIN!})

All,
My friends and I just finished doing some checking. Seems that the synthetic stock on the newer Mini-14 *is* a bit different than the one on the older one. We're gonna do a bit of `Dremel' work and other minor mods to get them closer to matching and see just how much `improvement?' happens this next weekend. (No! We *aren't* going to just `blindly' `hog away' at it. Most of what will be done before this weekend will jusy be the `rough' work. This weekend will be the `finetuning' and checking. While we know that the Mini-14 isn't a `tack driver' we figure that we can at least make it an accurate `hammer'. {BSE GRIN!})

Gordon, Steve, and myself thank you all for all your continueing help. Hopefully after this weekend I'll have good news to report and we all can sit back and smile.



------------------
Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-
 
Halfpint - when you get a chance, give us a report on what work has been done to the older mini-14. 3/4" groups at 100 yds is superb with most any production rifle, but with a mini-14, it's practically unheard of no matter what its twist rate is. Any special trigger work or bedding done, barrel replaced, or any special ammo used?
 
Mal H,
Sure nuff! I know that Steve *does* handload for it but I've never actually asked him about the `specs' for his loads. As for anything else he's done... I'll check. Personally... I, too, have always been surprised at just how accurate it's been. Though I do know that the ones I've seen have been shot off of a rest off of my trailer mounted bench. (Which is `stabilized' by several sets of jackstands sitting on chunks of 2x12 to keep down any bouncing and jiggling.) I'd always thought that the Mini-14 wasn't such `great shakes' at accuracy until I'd seen what he was getting with his.

Now, I do know that Gordon's stock is a bit different than Steve's but I really haven't closely looked to see *if*, besides the obvious manufacturing differences, there was anything else special that'd been done. All that was asked of me at the time was if I thought that I had the `proper?' Dremel stuff to do the job and *if* I did could they borrow it. If it was my Mini-14 I suppose that I'd be a lot more observant and detailed. (Like I said before... *If* they can `tame' it I *might* be tempted to get one myself and *then* I'd be a lot more `certain?' as to what was what. Right now I am somewhat `in the `middle' so to speak. {WAN GRIN!})

As I've said before... Thanks to all of you! So far it seems that there has been a definite `steering' in the right direction as to just what the `problem' may be.

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Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-



[This message has been edited by Halfpint (edited December 29, 1999).]
 
First of all... Here's wishing all of you a happy and prosperous 2000!

Next... Gordon was out this weekend and after taking the old Dremel orbital sander (Don't scream! It's not a `hogger' type of sander and the shoe is still very flat and true. Plus we also did the `finetuning' by hand where it was needed. If you compared the stock to a new one you'd be hard pressed to tell just where we actually did anything.) and some *fine* sandpaper to the stock and relieving a few of the horizontal surfaces a bit (Enough to let everything `settle in comfortably' while still maintaining a `firm' fit.) the stringing has all but completely disappeared! (There were a couple rough spots `inside' the stock that we removed, too. Patterns are now quite acceptable fitting closely to a silver dollar or so. (Gave my daughter a good workout running down to put up new targets all the time. {GRIN!}) Gordon and I say *Thanks* to all of you for the help and guidance!

As for Steve's Mini-14... As far as I was able to get him to comment he hasn't done anything `exceptional' to it except make certain that it all fit together nicely and a lot of shooting. He'd originally considered having the barrel `cryo'd' but later figured it would be `gilding the lilly' as it was shooting better than he'd hoped with his loads. (He didn't say just what they were but promised Gordon that he'd help him with loading some up for his and then we'd have the specs and such. [Is handloading *that* arcane? Personally *I* never considered it to be only taking care myself to be consistant and not rush things. I kinda expect that whatever Gordon ends up loading will probably be a bit different and *that* is why Steve wasn't ballyhooing his loads.])



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Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-


[This message has been edited by Halfpint (edited January 01, 2000).]
 
Well... First of all... Thanks to all who gave suggestions. Gordon's Mini-14 is now `history'. Just when we had thought that we had made reasonably good headway it started back in stringing shots again! Steve's, OTOH, is just tickety boo. Dunno just how he managed to get one that shoots so danged good! Anyway... Gordon traded his in on an AR-15 clone w/ a heavy barrel and floating forward handrest and is now in `hog heaven'. (Though he still gets a bit upset whenever I drag out the DR-200. {CHORTLE!}) I guess it just shows, yet again, that you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear no matter how hard one tries.

Doleo ergo sum,
-HALFPINT-
 
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