Vermont Carry?...

U

Unkel Gilbey

New member
In a previous string about what restrictions the gun owning public would be willing to put up with, there was mention of a "Vermont Carry" that I am totally unfamiliar with. Could anyone shed a light on this subject and educate a poor Jarhead?
Domo! Unkel Gilbey
 
The term "Vermont Carry" refers to Vermont's CCW law, to wit:

Anyone who can legally own a handgun may carry it in any manner, including concealed, without being required to bribe their Sheriff for permission to do so. The only restriction is that you carry without bad intent.

Simply put, in Vermont you can carry concealed without a permit. Some amazingly huge percentage of Vermonters take advantage of this law.

And just a bit of food for thought: Vermont has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the country. Imagine that.

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"We are going to fight. We are going to be hurt.
But in the end, we will stand."
--Roland Deschain
 
Vermont carry = open or concealed carry WITHOUT the illegal requirement for a permit.

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John/az

"They come, they eat, they leave...
"They come, they eat, they leave...NOT!!

Bill Clinton (aka: Hopper) Al Gore (aka: Molt) Janet Reno (aka: Thumper)

Ants UNITE!
 
The key to the Vermont law is that it only punishes the criminal and doesn't infringe on the rights of the law abiding citizen. Is that a novel concept or what?!

Mikey
 
Vermont is the model for RKBA... At least in this respect...

Are there any DOWNSIDES to Vermont?

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RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
 
This may get me a flood of yelling but...yes, there is a downside. Two actually.

1) For all it's faults, CCW tells the powers that be *exactly* how many serious-about-self-defense folk there are. The higher that number (currently at around 4.5mil, might be higher) the LESS likely they're liable to try mass disarmament patterned after the "suddenness of Australia".

2) More serious: in areas like California with high immigrant populations, having a CCW system that includes the basics of legal deadly force seems prudent. I'm not saying that out of "racism". Does anyone really want to know what the rules on deadly force are in, say, Pakistan? <shudder>. We also have many people from areas with no gun culture at all, like China...their ONLY source of info on proper gunplay and use of force is the boob tube.

Vermont has a long-established "gun culture", that's why it works. California's gun culture has been systematically destroyed - only until it's rebuilt with a good decade of shall-issue and training will Vermont Carry be safe.

THAT SAID, Vermont Carry would be an improvement over the current total disarmament. Unfortunately, without the training in use of force at a minimum we'd have a few problems that the media would jump all over. The whole country doesn't need that.

Jim March
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw
 
Right, Jim, and the Jim Crow laws of the 19th century were for the ex-slaves' own good. Do you really think the federal government would pick Vermont out of the union as the place to start gun confiscation because they think there is low gun ownership there as there are no numbers for CCW? Somehow I doubt it.

Does being an immigrant make you a moron? How do these immigrants with a TV education create successful businesses time and time again, if all they really know about business they picked up from watching Darren at work on "Bewitched"? Remember the LA riots of several years ago? Many immigrants defended their businesses with firearms, without blowing everybody away "Pakistan" style.

Enact Vermont carry, watch the crime drop, and let media spin away, as they will anyhow. You're either for freedom or against it. You either have the right to life, and the subsequent right to defend that life, or you don't. It doesn't matter if you just got off the boat from China/India/Namibia, you still have that right. Or don't you? Make up your mind, Jim.

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
Well, it's a moot point. Vermont Carry is politically impossible in California for at least a decade anyhow.

What we have now is completely intolerable. A shall-issue system with training is politically practical if we can show how horrendous the current mess is, which is why I helped publish the Colafrancesco Papers even before doing my own website more recently.

No, I don't think Vermont will be an early target. If real Aussie-level confiscation arrives, it'll be from the Feds and they'll try and take on all the states at once. Probably. The other danger is that a fundamentally anti-gun state might try a blanket handgun and semiauto rifle ban - top candidates are New Jersey, California, Mass, etc. It's a race to put in shall-issue ahead of time in such locations - if California suddenly had 400,000 permitholders a handgun ban would become flat-out impossible. If we were dumb enough to try and "hold out for shall-issue or nothing 'cuz we WILL NOT COMPROMISE" we'd inevitably lose the race and face a total loss.

As is, it's a dead heat.

Jim March
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw
 
Gents, Firstly, I'd like to thank all of you for the information. As a Marine, and as a Vermonter, the mention of the Vermont carry caught my eye like an overdraft notice from the bank. In my sixteen years of service in the Corps, the Vermont Govt. must have enacted this CCW policy and I never heard of it! Not like it really impacted me too much. Any time I ever went home, it was a small matter to gpo down to the Town offices and get my Deer, Bear, and Turkey tags and head out into the fields. I never gave any thought to how my firearms were stowed in the vehicle, or to if I were pulled over by the local Cops (we call them Nabbers) or anything like that.

Sure there is a low crime rate in Vermont. It's main inflow of money is tied with Tourism! There is really no heavy industry, we have no equivalent to Silicon Valley, and with only very few exceptions, there isn't really any big business (except for tourism!) Large towns typically number under 10,000 people. More likely under 5,000. My home town (Manchester) is considered large because it is a major crossroads to go across the state.

Vermonters (natives at least) are a rural folk. They DO live in a gun culture, and this might explain why there is a "Vermont Carry" policy for this state. Even though our State Representative is a Socialist (I DIDN'T vote for him!) one of the main reasons he was elected in the first place was his initial stand against Gun control. I can't say if he still feels this way. ALL politicians tend to change their stands as the wind blows. I have to study the hometown paper a bit more closely to see if there are any new twists that I should be aware of. Given the state of politics within the State, I was (frankly) surprised by this "Vermont Carry" that was mentioned here. It has started to make me want to re-evaluate my overall opinion of the State Govt.(crappy), and maybe spend a bit more time studying the political situation. It's hard to do this sometimes - especially since I'm here in Japan, but it IS worth the effort!

This forum is populated by some of the most articulate, intelligent, and thoughtful Americans that I've yet to encounter, and you are all brothers (and sisters) to boot! I am heartened to see that there actually IS a section of the populace that I can identify with and respond to, and I thank you for the opportunity that you've given me to state my opinions herein. I serve in the Marines not only because I have always wanted to be a Marine, but because I have a really strong sense of pride for my country and Corps. I gladly serve over here so that you can continue to populate this forum. Keep it up! Thanks again!
Unkel Gilbey
 
Unkel Gilbey, as far as I know, Vermont has always had the same carry laws.

Jim, my problem with permits is that it is unconstitutional and immoral for the the state to require a permit in order for a citizen to exercise a natural right. Any time we compromise away our rights, we have most likely lost them forever. Further, in compromising we scede the right, which becomes a privilege, at which point the state is free to revoke it. By pushing for compromise, you actually weaken your own position in the long run.

I'm sure you will disagree with this, but I think that is the reason so many of us are against "shall issue" ccw, and are for Vermont carry.

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
Are there any DOWNSIDES to Vermont?

Vermont is a paradox. Very rural, and very liberal. Burlington is hippy heaven, when the sixties ended all of them moved there. It's quite a sight to behold.
I would guess the reason Vermont has Vermont carry is because very few residents are aware of it.


[This message has been edited by walkin' man (edited June 27, 1999).]

[This message has been edited by walkin' man (edited June 27, 1999).]
 
Vermont did't enact "Vermont CArry", to my knowledge.. they just never made it illegal to carry a gun.

I lived in Vermont for four years and enjoyed it very much.. especially the last year and a half, when I was over 21 and able to take advantage of "Vermont Carry" and stop living dangerously (but protected)...

From Experience, there are two downsides to "Vermont Carry"... Downsides which are only downsides because they are places which do not HAVE "vermont carry"..

They fall into two categories:

1. Municipalities inside Vermont: Montpelier, Burlington, ST. Albans and Rutland, to my knowledge, all had ordinances forbidding the concealed carry of a loaded weapon when I lived there. There was no State law covering concealed carry which prohibited such local ordinances.

2. Other States with CCW permits which recognize out of state permits. States like Florida, Michigan and Tennessee which might well recognize an out of state CCW permit do not have any means to respect the right of a Vermonter to carry, becuase Vermonts have no authorizing permit.

Obviously, the problems I pointed out are with the local laws or the CCW structure in most states, not "Vermont Carry".. but both are interestiong problems that the Vermont Citizen must face, although the have the best CCW situation at first glance.



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-Essayons
 
"I'm sure you will disagree with this, but I think that is the reason so many of us are against "shall issue" ccw, and are for Vermont carry."

I *don't* disagree that shall-issue CCW is theoretically flawed. My biggest problem is with people in non-CCW or "maybe you can get a CCW if you BEG" states that don't want shall-issue because they want to jump "straight to Vermont".

Turning down shall-issue when you've got zip is just DUMB. Sorry, but...I call it like I see it.

My understanding is that the local ordinances in Vermont that forbid carry have been declared illegal by the courts. They're still on the books but they are NOT being enforced.

As to reciprocity, New Hampster is firmly in the growing reciprocity loop and allows out-of-state permit applicants...so many Vermonters score NH shall-issue CCW for travel purposes.

Jim March
http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw
 
"I *don't* disagree that shall-issue CCW is theoretically flawed." Theoretically flawed? You either have a right to life, or you don't. Pick one, don't prevaricate.

I might be "dumb" but at least I've got principle. BTW, my state is "shall-issue", I stand on principle and refuse to submit to pleading with my gov't masters to "permit" me to protect myself.

"Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice." Thomas Paine, a dummy from the 18th century.

My turn to call 'em as I see 'em: Compromising on rights is dumb, and destined for failure. Look at the history of gun control in this country and tell me I'm wrong.

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."
 
Ipecac,

While I admire your conviction, and agree with your theories, I think I lean towards Jim's point of view for daily practice.

It is impractical to not take advantage of CCW laws when they are are favorable. I look at it this way, if you think we should pay about 10% less taxes, but they give you a 5% tax cut, are you going to continue to pay the old amount, based on principal ??

It is not a compromise to take a legal route to carry a gun. It is a foot in the door. The more legal CCW we have and the more that legal CCW is used to responsibly stop crime, the close r we are to national "vermont Carry." If you use a gun without taking advantage of the Shall Issue permit, you are just another criminal. If you have the permit and use a gun, you are a valuable example for our argument.

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-Essayons
 
Rob, first let me thank you for responding thoughtfully to my last post. I wish to respectfully disagree with your post, however.

Your tax analogy is a poor one. All taxes are theft, so stealing less is still stealing. I have no principled stance in favor of taxes.

"If you use a gun without taking advantage of the Shall Issue permit, you are just another criminal." Wow. It's somewhat shocking to hear that I'd be lumped in with rapists, thieves and murderers simply for having the gall to defend myself without carrying a piece of paper signed by whatever bureaucrat is "in charge" of the CCW permits. Mala prohibita does NOT equal mala in se, at least in my book.

"The more legal CCW we have and the more that legal CCW is used to responsibly stop crime, the closer we are to national "vermont Carry." How much closer to Vermont carry has Vermont got us? How much closer has Kennesaw GA got us? How much closer have any of the studies which show concealed weapons reduce crime got us? How much closer has any of the "shall issue" states got us? Again, look at the history of gun control in this country, honestly, and tell me that compromising our natural rights has lead to greater freedom.

I'll say it again: Political pragmatism is what has got us where we are today.

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"All I ask is equal freedom. When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow."



[This message has been edited by Ipecac (edited June 30, 1999).]
 
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