VA Says the VA will not comply with the Veterans' Second Amendment Restoration Act

A

Aguila Blanca

Staff
I've never seen this YouTube channel before. I think his presentation is horribly disjointed and disorganized, but this is an important topic that we have discussed here before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8XBYoz2AjY

At issue is the practice of the VA to report veterans to NICS as being "mentally deficient" (and thereby getting them banned from possessing firearms) without any adjudication. It could be, as with Social Security, over nothing more than a veteran designating another person (maybe a son or a daughter) to handle their finances.

This is why veterans who own firearms should never, EVER admit to doing to to anyone in the VA system.

Also, in their regular screenings (if you are in the VA Healthcare System), their intake questions routinely ask if you are feeling sad or depressed. That's a loaded question, because it could lead to anyone in the system deciding that you "could be" a danger to yourself or to someone else ... so they'll report you to NICS. I get most of my health care through the VA. I don't care if my pickup just burned, my dog just died, and my wife just ran off with my best friend ... the only answer to "Are you feeling even a little down today?" is "I feel great. Life is good and I'm happy to be alive."

If you are a veteran, write to your Congresscritters and tell them that this attitude by the VA is unacceptable.
 
One reason why I put off going to the VA for anything, even my deteriorating hearing. I'll pay for my own stuff, I don't need the free VA "care". I also have a buddy who keeps on me to go get my "disability" for my hearing loss. I am not disabled and I will retire in less than 5 years. Then I will use the retiree health care.
 
We went over this before, and I was under the impression that that the problem had been fixed, or was, at least being worked on, but it seems this is not the case.

The problem is entirely created by and the responsibility of the various government agencies and their operating parameters.

The Social Security Administration and apparently also the VA declare people to be "mentally incompetent" using their own, in house definitions and guidelines. There is no attempt made to use the definitions in actual law. They don't need a hearing, or even a qualified physician's diagnosis or even testimony, your own words (and their interpretation of them) can be enough.

There are actual benefits that you can only qualify for if you are classified "mentally incompetent".

This, in and of itself is not what I consider the right way to do things, but it rarely is a problem AS LONG AS it stays completely "in house" with the particular agency.

Where it becomes a serious problem, and a threat to our rights, is when it goes outside the originating agency and into a different agency that uses a different set of criteria.

SS and the VA can have multiple different multiple different classifications under the heading of "Mentally disabled" and use them inside their own agency.

NICS has only ONE box for mentally disabled and that one means you are prohibited from possessing firearms.

They don't check (possibly don't care, or possibly are not allowed by law) to determine the accuracy of another agency's classification. They don't check if the legal requirements of adjudication and a court ruling have been done.

They have a report from another govt agency that says you are "mentally disabled" and that's enough for them to list you as a prohibited person.

This came about, ironically from efforts to make the govt "more efficient".
 
44 AMP said:
We went over this before, and I was under the impression that that the problem had been fixed, or was, at least being worked on, but it seems this is not the case.
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It was supposed to have been fixed. Congress enacted a law to fix it. That's the law that the head of the VA stated his agency would NOT follow.
 
How is this guy not already on the unemployed rolls??

Isn't it one of our basic principles that no matter what your opinion of a law is, and no matter difficult compliance is, that you have to at least attempt to comply until a court rules you do not??

TO be clear, the law protecting veterans from this abuse isn't law YET, but we have the head of the VA telling Congress that "his" agency will not comply with it, if/when it becomes law? :eek:

is that right??
 
...head of the VA telling Congress that "his" agency
will not comply with it, if/when it becomes law?
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When (not if) a lawsuit is brought to bear,
his own words will strip him bare. (sic ;))



OOC: Are criminal charges also possible under such circumstances ?
if so, his own words will also strip him of qualified immunity
 
One reason why I put off going to the VA for anything, even my deteriorating hearing. I'll pay for my own stuff, I don't need the free VA "care". I also have a buddy who keeps on me to go get my "disability" for my hearing loss. I am not disabled and I will retire in less than 5 years. Then I will use the retiree health care.
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Same. I would rate disability benefits if I saw the VA. I did briefly try to give them a chance to treat my hearing and vestibular problems after my last deployment... they essentially threw their hands up (which I get there isn't tons you can do for vertigo and hearing from what I've read, but there are some options at least). After my 2nd or 3rd appointment I never went back. My last appointment I was essentially told to live with managing it and apply for disability. Nope, not doing that.


*part of me was also afraid they would rat me out and come for my driver's license, employment certification, etc based on my last conversation with a doctor at the VA. Yes I do get vertigo, no I don't think it rates medically canceling my license. My primary care physician agrees
 
Good thinking, 5whiskey. Everybody at the VA does everything by rote. The only time I ever found a doctor willing to go slightly off the book and advocate for me was when my primary doc was on maternity leave and her temporary replacement was a really nice young woman doctor who had recently completed her residency at Yale. She went to bat for me to get a medication that my non-VA cardiologist (who was also a professor of cardiology) thought was best for me, but which the VA pharmacy didn't normally dispense.

My latest battle with them was over the fact that their chaplains enter details of every chat with them into your medical records -- where every doctor, nurse, PA, and intern can see what you talked to the chaplain about. And they don't tell you they're doing it -- I found out after the fact, when looking for something else in my records.

So much for clergy confidentiality.
 
There is no USG-provided medical information (or effectively) privileged communications that eventually won't come to light and be used by persons outside those circles.

It's for your own good of course.
 
YIKES!! That's it - I will never ever use the VA for squat. I have a buddy who swears by them, and the VFW rep was all about it, but nope, I'll skip any place where even Privilege of Clergy is denied. Screw that noise - I have good insurance and I'll use it. last time i used military medical was in 1989, and we'll leave that in the past.
 
I'll skip any place where even Privilege of Clergy is denied.
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This brought up a few questions to mind, in no particular order...

We're all aware of the "sanctity of the confessional" and that private conversations with clergy are considered confidential, but is this spelled out in law, or is it just custom???

Are we protected talking to a priest, outside of an actual confession? Are we protected talking to a Reverend, or a Rabbi??

IS a VA "Chaplin" an actually ordained member of the clergy? Or is he a social counselor with a mail order "ordainment" paper on his wall??

IS the "privilege of the Clergy" actually being denied??? and, by this I mean, is the recording of your conversational details into the open medical record a VA requirement, something stated in their written rules and policies, OR is it something unwritten, but expected??

And along with that, is the Chaplain doing it because its policy that he's just going along with, or is it something that particular individual is doing because they feel its in your best interest (or theirs???)

Is this a VA wide thing, or just something one particular Chaplain is doing??

Just curious....
 
44 AMP said:
This brought up a few questions to mind, in no particular order...

We're all aware of the "sanctity of the confessional" and that private conversations with clergy are considered confidential, but is this spelled out in law, or is it just custom???
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Generally spelled out in law, but check your state's laws.

Are we protected talking to a priest, outside of an actual confession? Are we protected talking to a Reverend, or a Rabbi??
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Generally yes, and yes -- with some exceptions for mandated reporting topics. Again, check your state's laws.

IS a VA "Chaplin" an actually ordained member of the clergy? Or is he a social counselor with a mail order "ordainment" paper on his wall??
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Ordained clergy.

IS the "privilege of the Clergy" actually being denied??? and, by this I mean, is the recording of your conversational details into the open medical record a VA requirement, something stated in their written rules and policies, OR is it something unwritten, but expected??
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Apparently written policy (but not disclosed to us peons).


And along with that, is the Chaplain doing it because its policy that he's just going along with, or is it something that particular individual is doing because they feel its in your best interest (or theirs???)

Is this a VA wide thing, or just something one particular Chaplain is doing??
Click to expand...
My initial conversation was with a female member of the chaplain's staff ("a" chaplain, but not "the" (boss} chaplain. After I discovered that what I had believed to be a confidential conversation ... wasn't, I had a talk with the chief chaplain at my VA hospital. This is policy from Washington, and the head chaplain became very defensive (and rather testy) when I protested.
 
It looks like there are two laws on this subject. The one I mentioned above was only recently proposed, and has not yet been voted on. It would require the VA to UNlist all those veterans they have already reported to NICS for reasons such as inability to handlke their personal finances.

Apparently there was also a section added to a recent appropriations bill that prohibits the VA from reporting veterans to NICS without an adjudicated finding going forward. This bill has been passed and signed by the President. I suspect it was probably this bill/law that was being discussed when the head of the VA was testifying and declared that his agency would not comply with the law.

https://www.veterans.senate.gov/202...t-to-protect-veterans-second-amendment-rights
 
a) Care must be documented in the EHR in accordance with 44 U.S.C. §§ 3101-
3102 and VHA Handbook 1907.01, Health Information Management and Health
Records, dated March 19, 2015. NOTE: Questions as to whether information
communicated by a Veteran to a chaplain is considered to be confidential and
privileged, such that it is protected from disclosure in connection with any VA
administrative or other legal proceeding, should be referred to the Office of General
Counsel or Regional Counsel.
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https://www.va.gov/vhapublications/ViewPublication.asp?pub_ID=9350
page 8.
Rule 503 of the Military Rules of Evidence states that communications made as a "formal act of religion or as a matter of conscience" to either a chaplain or a chaplain assistant while serving in the capacity of spiritual advisor are considered confidential and are not to be shared with third parties. There are no exceptions
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https://www.health.mil/Military-Health-Topics/Centers-of-Excellence/Psychological-
Health-Center-of-Excellence/Clinicians-Corner-Blog/Confidentiality-Chaplains-and-the-Military
Today’s military service members, their family members, and authorized Defense Department civilians can now speak with military chaplains and those who assist them in their capacity as spiritual advisors, confident in the sanctity of 100% absolute confidentiality for all communications to clergy made either as a formal act of religion or as a matter of conscience. This was established by the Supreme Court in U.S. v. Trammel, 445 U.S. 40 (1980) and is stipulated by Rule 503 of the current Uniform Code of Military Justice. This means that Army chaplains and religious affairs specialists can both provide 100% confidentiality for privileged communication.
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https://www.army.mil/article/274584/chaplain_confidentiality_go_tell_it_to_the_chaplain

That's Law.
Then there's practice.....
 
as a good friend of mine used to say "a secret is not a secret if two people know it, unless the other one is dead."

or as has been quoted "i'd tell you, but then i'd have to kill you."

all joking aside, it is hard to find a good friend that you can talk about anything with that wont at some point share it with others,,, and sometimes that's a bad thing. some times not so much.
 
Unfortunately, my mention of the chaplain has taken this discussion off the subject. Let's try to get back on topic. This thread is about the VA's practice of reporting to NICS as "mentally deficient" veterans who have NOT been adjudicated mentally deficient. If an absent-minded veteran so much as asks that his pension or disability check be sent to a family member rather than to himself (a "designated payee"), the VA unilaterally decides the veteran is mentally deficient and automatically reports the veteran to NICS.

No hearing, no judge, no adjudication (which is required under the laws that make a person prohibited), and -- apparently -- no appeal or other means of getting OFF the NICS roster once the VA has (illegally) submitted the names.

So we now have a law -- signed by the President -- that says going forward the VA cannot do this. And I now believe this is the law the head of the VA was saying they won't obey.

Then there's another bill -- the one I mentioned when I started this thread -- that would require the VA to retroactively compile a list of all those veterans who were unlawfully reported, and send that list to the FBI so those veterans' names can be removed from the NICS roster. This one was proposed only a few days ago, and has not yet been enacted into law.
 
If I recall correctly, this entire mess was created by an Executive order, and could be undone and corrected the same way.

However the Executive branch seem to have no interest in doing that, so Congress is passing /proposing laws to do what the Executive branch is not doing.

I think the head of the VA telling Congress flat out they will not comply with the law was barking stupid, and ought to be a careering ending mistake for him.

Telling Congress that they would have difficulty complying, or that they might not be able to comply is one thing, telling them flat out they will not comply is a much different matter.
 
allow me to be devils advocate.
im a 22 year vet on 30 percent. it cost me an ear and a broken back to get it.
take a kid who did 4 years.....and claims ptsd over a bomb going off or a guy getting shot near him.

comes home and gets 100%.
free cell phones. free computers. free college.
I make about 3 grand in retirement. took me 22 years.
he gets 3 grand and claims hes got ptsd.
I know a lot of these types. im a landlord.
they go to VA and have to take meds to help their ptsd.
he sits in coping group sessions much like AA to make him feel better.
without doing it, they take him off benefits.
I asked them if they will ever be cured.
they tell me they dont want to be, so they can get that 3 grand.

so...the way I look at it, if they want 3 grand to play sick, there has to be a cost.
and that cost should be....no guns.
its the same thing as don't drink and drive. want to drive? don't drink. want VA perks? no guns.

I think that is what the law was designed for.
and we the honest vets who are doing great, not asking for more than we deserve, get caught in the ptsd crossfire game.

I know I deserve more. 42 pages of forms 3 times and still denied, even with VFW assistance, AND ftf with a VA rep, I gave up. I don't go looking for aid, I just take what is given and live my life with a clean conscience.
 
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