VA carry law proves it's worth, not exactly.

S

Slugthrower

New member
On the 6th of January 2012 at approximately 6:15 PM. three armed men wearing ski masks entered a small community bar. These men attempted to rob the patrons. They were having people empty their pockets and a customer. Once this occured and during the robbery another customer slipped out of the building and returned with a firearm kept in his vehicle. This person then ordered the robbers to lay down their weapons. The criminals did not comply and a shoot out commenced. When the chaos broke out the citizen shot and killed one of the perpetrators. There was an exchange of gun fire and other patrons began to resist their assailants. In the ensuing fight a regular of the sports bar was wounded in the stomach. The man wounded in the stomach was throwing pool cues at the robbers to distract them. The remaining two bad guys left the building and fled. They were last seen driving a light blue Ford Taurus.

To me this is a prime example of why it is prudent to be armed at all times and no matter the venue. Crime knows no bounds and they apparently see people who frequent a tavern as prime targets. It does make sense in that alchohol consumption at such a place is rather expensive and requires a good bit of money to engage in.

People who carry firearms cannot consume under VA law and this is absolutely the correct regulation for the armed individual. It is not clear that the customer who shot one of the bad guys was or wasn't drinking at the time. I suppose it makes no matter in that he wasn't armed at the time, but instead retrived a firearm stored in his vehicle. The point here is that he did have a weapon available if such dire circumstances arised.
In no way do I condone the consumption of intoxicants and the carrying of firearms. However, it is most fortunate for many people in that bar that this person had a firearm in his vehicle though. He is considered a hero by those people as stated by several on camera and in private. He could have just as easily left the scene and not came back. By willingly putting himself in danger he is indeed a hero.

It is a good day when the local media reports in a neutral fashion such an incident. Perhaps those that are not firearm friendly will see the merit in allowing certain people onto thier premises armed though. The more positive press we as firearms users have the better, IMO. If or when more information becomes available I will post more on it.

What are some of the thoughts the of memebers here on TFL?
 
Most of the bars I go to here in CT are Legion or VFW that require you to be a member or a guest. Locked doors with cameras at entrances, you get buzzed in or have your key. As it is, the law here says you cannot be under the influence and carry. I asked a cop if that meant I couldn't have a beer while carrying and he reiterated "under the influence". Pretty sure that meant he was covering his butt by not going into detail. I solved the problem by just not drinking while shooting pool. I also agree alcohol and firearms don't mix. That being said, I believe bartenders should be required to be armed and have training. Places and professions that have a history of being targeted for robberies would see a decline in violence if perps knew the targets are armed.
 
Im asking not criticizing. I wasn't there so I don't know the whole story. But is it smart to start shooting when you are outnumbered? Could see some situations where it would make sense. Does it always?
 
icedog88 said:
As it is, the law here says you cannot be under the influence and carry.
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As is my custom: What's the statutory citation for this? I'm familiar with the Virginia law so I won't ask for a cite on that, but I've never heard about a Connecticut law addressing carrying under the influence.

Back to the original story: If I were in this situation, I wonder if I would have bothered ordering the perps to lay down their weapons. There is no legal requirement to do so, and the story illustrates the potential downside of doing so. Didn't one of the famous old western gunfighters once say something about if you're in a fair fight you did something wrong?
 
I agree Icedog88, it is a good idea to have some sort of contengency and the tender having the option of a shotgun would be but one. The locked doors and a check at that door is an even better measure as well.

Checkmyswag, it may not be the best idea to fight when outnumbered, in this case the man who returned had the drop on the man he shot. The others reacted in panic and on the first sign of resistance fled the scene. In general most people who commit a robbery expect little or no resistance. The people in the bar were not resisting at first as the element of surprise was in the criminals favor. I suppose that they let their guard down and that is when the pther acted. It ws a risk he took and worked out in his and most of the others favor.

Would it be something to repeat, who knows? In his situation it is what he saw fit to do. To my way of thinking it is a similar situation where a person is attempting to abduct a person and possibly murder them. If a person wants you to get into a vehicle and holds a gun on you. Do you comply? I wouldn't in such a case. If I do they could take me to a more secluded location to make sure there are no witnesses and most likely do me in. I would rather take the chance there on the spot as opposed to allowing the bad guy time to gain advantage.

Not that such is the case here, but in the military they teach soldiers to charge a machinegun. Even in the worst case senario, an ambush, you charge the gunner. Why is this? It is because if you run away all it does is make you an easy target for the MG gunner as he can continue to press the attack without fear for himself. He has less time and abilty to defeat your unit if you engage as opposed to breaking contact.
In most cases in an ambush the attacker will have superior firepower. In order to break contact and begin a retreat you must have superior firepower. This is why SEALS and other Spec Ops guys carry so much firepower. It isn't so much for an attack as it is to make the enemy believe he is facing an much larger a powerful element and therefore hesitant to persue. In the case where you don't have that superiorty a counter attack the method the way. It is only in the counter attack the one being abushed has any chance to survive. Althought your chances may be slim to none, it is better than accepting the the compromise of no chance.

For us in the civilian world retreat would be my first choice. So in short no it isn't always a go idea to go back into harms way. THis young man was a regular and many in the bar were his friends. I am pretty sure he couldn't just abandon them in good conscience. So he did what he did. As they say. there is a thin line between bravery and stupidity. In this case he was very lucky and brave indeed.
 
Agree on that, Aguila Blanca. The element of surprise is your best asset. He would have been better off just sending them to their makers. Still comes down to us not being there and knowing what he was facing.
 
Aguila

Sec. 53-206d. Carrying a firearm while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drug prohibited. Hunting while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or drug or while impaired by the consumption of intoxicating liquor prohibited. (a)(1) No person shall carry a pistol, revolver, machine gun, shotgun, rifle or other firearm, which is loaded and from which a shot may be discharged, upon his person (A) while under the influence of intoxicating liquor or any drug, or both, or (B) while the ratio of alcohol in the blood of such person is ten-hundredths of one per cent or more of alcohol, by weight.

(2) Any person who violates any provision of this subsection shall be guilty of a class B misdemeanor.

This is the only thing I can find pertaining to liquor. There is is no statue that I can find relating to carrying in a bar at this time.
 
While I understand the idea of not mixing firearms and impaired judgment/reflexes, I don't like the idea that if I have a drink I cannot legally defend myself against a criminal. (And even if I beat the criminal charge, there's always the civil suit: "He was liquored up and shot my defendant's son, a former choirboy who wouldn't hurt a fly, never mind the yard-long rap sheet...")
 
If it happened this way, the guy who went back into the bar made a huge mistake, IMO. First off, he's not a cop...so why did he go back inside? Just turning over wallets and the night's bar tabs aren't a good enough reason, IMO, for Joe Citizen to play cop...unless the robber were already shooting the patrons or had made it clear they were going to. Was his reappearance in the bar the catalyst for the shooting? If so, his actions led to another patron being shot and wounded. Would they have just left if he hadn't gone back in there? Should he waited outside on the phone and only gone back in if he'd heard shots? That's what I would have done. He also took on multiple assailants, not a smart thing to do, and obviously the robbers knew they had him outgunned. He might have also been the closest armed person standing near the door...not a good place to be if the cops show up, for them or him.
IMO this situation and it's aftermath is more about when and where you should intervene and when you shouldn't other than being able to carry after you've had a beer. If the events happened this way and there nothing more to the story, and there might be, this guy shouldn't have intervened. But that's just the way I see it.
 
Here, the impairment standard is the same as for driving a vehicle. If you're too impaired to drive, you're too impaired to carry legally. Seems to go hand in hand.
 
if I have a drink I cannot legally defend myself against a criminal.
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There is no law that says you cannot defend yourself.

The law says you cannot carry concealed handgun into a place serving alcohol by the drink in Virgina and also drink.

You are free to use fists, a baseball bat, or an unconcealed gun.
 
brickeyee, my understanding is that in TX (where I've moved to from VA), you cannot CCW while under the influence. I could be wrong on this.
 
Florida's laws are interesting and convenient. I can go into a restaurant (that isn't strictly a bar) that serves alcohol, carry a concealed weapon, and drink myself stupid; as long as I don't sit in the "bar" area. It only becomes illegal if I "use" the weapon under the influence, which is defined as having a loaded gun in my hand. And there is an exception for using the gun in self-defense. Of course you should always drink and carry responsibly, and I abide by that unwritten law.

In response to the OP: it's always great to see people stand up to the bad guys. It certainly could have gone better, but that's usually the case. Even the SEALs that busted Bin Laden had their share of mishaps, with all their planning and intel. There's one less bad guy, and a few more scared ones.
 
People who carry firearms cannot consume under VA law and this is absolutely the correct regulation for the armed individual.
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I have to disagree. The way we do it in Colorado is a little simpler: it's legal to drink and carry as long as you're not "under the influence," meaning your blood alcohol content remains below .08%, the same level used to determine whether you're good to drive. That's the way it's done in several other states, and makes sense to me.

Most people don't drink to excess and drive. I have to believe at least that same proportion of people who keep and bear arms on a daily basis wouldn't drink to excess and carry.
 
In most states, it's illegal to carry a firearm into an establishment with a CLASS-X liquor license (whatever "X" is in that state) that basically makes the establishment a bar. Restaurants that also happen to serve alcohol are not the same as bars as far as CCW laws go in most states.

The "Restaurant Carry" laws are usually a very hot topic of discussion. Here in Louisiana, there are several contradicting laws on the books that have resulted in most agencies basically saying "Don't carry in restaurants just to be safe" even if the place doesn't have a CLASS-X (ie, "bar") liquor license.

But a lot of retaurants have an attached bar, or an actual bar (with bartender, displayed beverages, beer-taps, etc...) inside the main eating area or perhaps only separated by a very basic divider. This is where you need to be very clear on what the laws are in your state.

If you plan on driving to a bar, consuming alcohol, and leaving the pistol in your car, only to then get back in your car after drinking, and drive with the weapon in your possession, then you're an idiot because you're probably drunk, or at least over the limit? "Well, I'm only going to have 1 beer"... why bother? It's just something you need to think about before you leave the house enroute to someplace where you plan to drink and you have your firearm with you.
 
I know that in Arizona, with a permit I can carry concealed into a place the serves alcohol (if not properly posted), but I can't drink. In Nevada, I believe the legal BAC when carrying is 0.10.

But consider that if you need to use your gun and if there's any question about justification, any alcohol in your system will probably not be helpful in your efforts to get things sorted out in your favor.
 
Slugthrower
VA carry law proves it's worth, not exactly.
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Alcohol and ...you pick 'em...
- cars
- guns
- gambling
- heavy machinery...

Don't mix...

BUT...

It should be left to the individual to decide. I personally don't drink anymore, but I don't see anything wrong with having a glass of wine with dinner while carrying. Just like the DUI laws Carrying While Intoxicated should be enforced. There's a big difference between going to a bar for a single drink while CC'ing and going to a bar to get plastered while CC'ing.
 
With my wife and I its easy, whom ever is the designated driver is also the designated CCWer. We switch off every other time we go out. Even though my wife only has a glass of wine and I only have a glass of bourbon, there's no reason to take a chance on a DUI or losing a permit.
 
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