Caeca Invidia Es
Staff Alumnus
Regardless of what people's view on pornography is I feel this is a very vicious attack on our civil rights in Utah, not to mention a nice waste of tax payers money.
Utah scraps the First Ammendment.
- Thread starter Caeca Invidia Es
- Start date
I guess I'm not the libertarian I thought I was. Having spent a lot of time in Utah--not as much as I'd like to--I understand each community's take on what is "moral." Even when I disagree. Blanding doesn't sell beer? Fine. I won't park my bike there for the night. Imagine the outrage if all of us from TFL formed our own town and made firearms ownership mandatory. Could we do it legally? I think so. When like-minded people get together and form a community, elect representatives that carry their views, that's called "self-government." I think out Founders wanted something like that.
Dick
Dick
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
The problem is in the definition. No different than "hate crime" or "sexism" or "harassment", etc. For that matter, given that we're talking about pictures, define "harm".
The world of Pedophilia is a whole different deal than "Playboy"--but when the frenzy gets rolling, they get lumped together.
The Good Lord invented remote controls and the mouse so you don't have to watch trivial TV or bummer Internet. Click! G'bye! There are also "OFF" buttons. What's the problem?
Art
The world of Pedophilia is a whole different deal than "Playboy"--but when the frenzy gets rolling, they get lumped together.
The Good Lord invented remote controls and the mouse so you don't have to watch trivial TV or bummer Internet. Click! G'bye! There are also "OFF" buttons. What's the problem?
Art
Caeca Invidia Es
Staff Alumnus
This isn't community based, it is a state wide law. Here are the issues I have with it:
1. They have put into place a system that forces me to abide by their moral beliefs. Everyone has different morals that they live by, and I don't feel anyone should be able to dictate what those morals will be.
2. This is a direct result of the religious influence in Utah. Having a religious influence over regulations such as this puts those of us who are not religious in a very oppressed situation.
3. This allows the moral majority to dictate what can be watched in Utah. This is an "obscenity and pornography" department. This isn't directed at pornography alone, but anything that they dislike.
4. This also allows regulation of what clothing can be worn. What is to stop them from deciding that my NRA t-shirt is offensive and telling me I'm not allowed to wear them anymore?
Now let's pick apart these comments:
I really don't agree with this. If all parties involved are consenting adults then the pornography should be protected the same as the news and other movies under the First Ammendment. Regardless of their personal opinions on it.
I do agree with this, but don't see it as a valid remark in this case. In the case that all parties involved are consenting adults, then nobody is being harmed by it and there for it shouldn't be regulated.
This goes back to my original issues. Somebody I've never met in my life should not have the authority to dictate what morals I live by.
As a side note. Virgin Utah does require everyone to own a gun... unless you are mentally ill, a felon or don't like the law.
1. They have put into place a system that forces me to abide by their moral beliefs. Everyone has different morals that they live by, and I don't feel anyone should be able to dictate what those morals will be.
2. This is a direct result of the religious influence in Utah. Having a religious influence over regulations such as this puts those of us who are not religious in a very oppressed situation.
3. This allows the moral majority to dictate what can be watched in Utah. This is an "obscenity and pornography" department. This isn't directed at pornography alone, but anything that they dislike.
4. This also allows regulation of what clothing can be worn. What is to stop them from deciding that my NRA t-shirt is offensive and telling me I'm not allowed to wear them anymore?
Now let's pick apart these comments:
I really don't agree with this. If all parties involved are consenting adults then the pornography should be protected the same as the news and other movies under the First Ammendment. Regardless of their personal opinions on it.
I do agree with this, but don't see it as a valid remark in this case. In the case that all parties involved are consenting adults, then nobody is being harmed by it and there for it shouldn't be regulated.
This goes back to my original issues. Somebody I've never met in my life should not have the authority to dictate what morals I live by.
As a side note. Virgin Utah does require everyone to own a gun... unless you are mentally ill, a felon or don't like the law.
Go Art!
I was born and raised in Utah, and from the law's I've seen passed I wish I could leave. The beauty of this great state is marred by the prejudices it breads. I don’t have a problem with pornography. It is an art few understand. Just as I don’t understand why paintings done by elephants, cats, ferrets, etc. get sold for multi-millions when I still can’t make a dime from the stories I write. Larry Flinn’s (flint?? I cant remember) lawyer said it right in his movie. If you don’t like porn… don’t buy it. I agree with him on the fact where I should have the right to buy it if I want to, or throw it in the trash if I think its foul!
In my humble opinion it is just another ‘for the children’ act that has no reason in society. If porn is so evil, why is it a HUGE industry? Why, if they are selling so many video’s, magazines, etc. is the moral indiscretions not soaring through the papers like wild fire? Porn causes rape and incest right? Just like guns cause mindless death?
I’ve paid my extra tax for cigarettes, I’ve obeyed their indoor clean air act, I’ve even been mocked on many occasions for not being religious. So be it, but the porn, alcohol and tobacco laws here are already unprecedented. Just because I live here there are many things I already have to go out of state to purchase. How many of you don’t know our beer is 3.0 here? (Aren’t the visitors for the Olympics going to be peeved?)
I was born and raised in Utah, and from the law's I've seen passed I wish I could leave. The beauty of this great state is marred by the prejudices it breads. I don’t have a problem with pornography. It is an art few understand. Just as I don’t understand why paintings done by elephants, cats, ferrets, etc. get sold for multi-millions when I still can’t make a dime from the stories I write. Larry Flinn’s (flint?? I cant remember) lawyer said it right in his movie. If you don’t like porn… don’t buy it. I agree with him on the fact where I should have the right to buy it if I want to, or throw it in the trash if I think its foul!
In my humble opinion it is just another ‘for the children’ act that has no reason in society. If porn is so evil, why is it a HUGE industry? Why, if they are selling so many video’s, magazines, etc. is the moral indiscretions not soaring through the papers like wild fire? Porn causes rape and incest right? Just like guns cause mindless death?
I’ve paid my extra tax for cigarettes, I’ve obeyed their indoor clean air act, I’ve even been mocked on many occasions for not being religious. So be it, but the porn, alcohol and tobacco laws here are already unprecedented. Just because I live here there are many things I already have to go out of state to purchase. How many of you don’t know our beer is 3.0 here? (Aren’t the visitors for the Olympics going to be peeved?)
"This isn't directed at pornography alone, but anything that they dislike."
Sums it up nicely. Its all about control. You will do as we say.
"The world of Pedophilia is a whole different deal than "Playboy"--but when the frenzy gets rolling, they get lumped together."
Underage porn is disgusting and should be illegal and persecuted since it does not involve consenting adults, but the child porn is used as a rallying cry to outrage and scare people the same way the term "assault weapon" is used but the gun grabbers.
I used to belong to the local bicycle club. At one time there was a bill in the state legislature to require mandatory helmet usage. The position of the club was going to be to support the bill. After an hour and half conversation with the president of the club, who was an ardent supporter of bicylce helmet usage, I convinced her that the club should not support the bill. Once somebody decides to control something, they never stop. First its helmets, then its blaze orange clothing, then its lights, then its fenders and bells, then its.... Pretty soon your 23lb racing bike weighs 28 lbs.
Some of the bills do start out with legitimately good intentions (whether one agrees with the premise of the bill or not), but they usually get adulterated in congress, or abused in practice, to the point of being something other than what they started out as.
Its been proven time and agian that you can't legislate morality. Its about control.
Sums it up nicely. Its all about control. You will do as we say.
"The world of Pedophilia is a whole different deal than "Playboy"--but when the frenzy gets rolling, they get lumped together."
Underage porn is disgusting and should be illegal and persecuted since it does not involve consenting adults, but the child porn is used as a rallying cry to outrage and scare people the same way the term "assault weapon" is used but the gun grabbers.
I used to belong to the local bicycle club. At one time there was a bill in the state legislature to require mandatory helmet usage. The position of the club was going to be to support the bill. After an hour and half conversation with the president of the club, who was an ardent supporter of bicylce helmet usage, I convinced her that the club should not support the bill. Once somebody decides to control something, they never stop. First its helmets, then its blaze orange clothing, then its lights, then its fenders and bells, then its.... Pretty soon your 23lb racing bike weighs 28 lbs.
Some of the bills do start out with legitimately good intentions (whether one agrees with the premise of the bill or not), but they usually get adulterated in congress, or abused in practice, to the point of being something other than what they started out as.
Its been proven time and agian that you can't legislate morality. Its about control.
Phil,
You say, "Its been proven time and agian that you can't legislate morality."
----------
This is utter nonsense. Our entire criminal justice system is based on the notion that we MUST LEGISLASTE MORALITY. By defining what is moral, we define what is civil, thereby laying the very foundation of our civilization.
This whole "legislation of morality" cliche is getting old, yesterday.
Sincerely,
Anthony
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."
-- James Wilson, The Works of the Honourable James Wilson (Philadelphia: Bronson and Chauncey, 1804), Vol. I, p. 106.)
You say, "Its been proven time and agian that you can't legislate morality."
----------
This is utter nonsense. Our entire criminal justice system is based on the notion that we MUST LEGISLASTE MORALITY. By defining what is moral, we define what is civil, thereby laying the very foundation of our civilization.
This whole "legislation of morality" cliche is getting old, yesterday.
Sincerely,
Anthony
"Far from being rivals or enemies, religion and law are twin sisters, friends, and mutual assistants. Indeed, these two sciences run into each other. The divine law, as discovered by reason and the moral sense, forms an essential part of both."
-- James Wilson, The Works of the Honourable James Wilson (Philadelphia: Bronson and Chauncey, 1804), Vol. I, p. 106.)
Caeca Incavidia Es
I agree wholeheartedly. Hmmm, I've been thinking about moving there (SLC), for good early next year. Maybe I'd better look harder into Idaho, Nevada, or Colo. instead. Anyone live in Reno area? What's it like there? Last thing I need is a criminal charge for looking at some web pages. Interestingly enough, I looked at this issue last year in my state, and actually found a case here in OK where a man's late 90s conviction was upheld for looking at porn (not child porn, just ordinary porn) held in CD form, on his work computer, and the statute under which he was convicted indicates that an image captured on a hard disk drive, and yes, even just on the monitor, is a reproduction (or possession) of obscenity for purposes of the crime. The first amendment didn't apply, because it wasn't his home. Lesson here: If you live in OK, do NOT look at porn at work, and certainly don't leave it on your work computer, even in a cache file. At home, you should be safe from prosecution. Now it happens that this guy was ALSO convicted of selling/distributing porn, so I'm sure the DA was throwing the book at him, BUT... the point is - the law is still there that makes mere possession illegal, and his conviction for that separate count WAS upheld - very scary. So I guess moving to Utah, at least in part to attempt to escape religios zealots, doesn't make sense at all, does it? Can anyone tell me the best place in the US (city and state) to have all the following criteria: (1) Big city, with all that that encompasses [or at least as big as possible that still meets the other criteria]; (2) big, beautiful mountains and ski resorts; (3) A culture (and laws) that supports gun rights and other freedoms, and does not impose religious will on its citizens [this is where Salt Lake may fail]; (4) a culture (& laws) that DOES respect & protect the environment; and (5) where there is a strong general respect for work ethic, intellect, healthy living, your fellow humans, and basic principles of morality among the population; where crime is low, etc.??? I suppose I may as well be looking for the lost city of Atlantis.
I agree wholeheartedly. Hmmm, I've been thinking about moving there (SLC), for good early next year. Maybe I'd better look harder into Idaho, Nevada, or Colo. instead. Anyone live in Reno area? What's it like there? Last thing I need is a criminal charge for looking at some web pages. Interestingly enough, I looked at this issue last year in my state, and actually found a case here in OK where a man's late 90s conviction was upheld for looking at porn (not child porn, just ordinary porn) held in CD form, on his work computer, and the statute under which he was convicted indicates that an image captured on a hard disk drive, and yes, even just on the monitor, is a reproduction (or possession) of obscenity for purposes of the crime. The first amendment didn't apply, because it wasn't his home. Lesson here: If you live in OK, do NOT look at porn at work, and certainly don't leave it on your work computer, even in a cache file. At home, you should be safe from prosecution. Now it happens that this guy was ALSO convicted of selling/distributing porn, so I'm sure the DA was throwing the book at him, BUT... the point is - the law is still there that makes mere possession illegal, and his conviction for that separate count WAS upheld - very scary. So I guess moving to Utah, at least in part to attempt to escape religios zealots, doesn't make sense at all, does it? Can anyone tell me the best place in the US (city and state) to have all the following criteria: (1) Big city, with all that that encompasses [or at least as big as possible that still meets the other criteria]; (2) big, beautiful mountains and ski resorts; (3) A culture (and laws) that supports gun rights and other freedoms, and does not impose religious will on its citizens [this is where Salt Lake may fail]; (4) a culture (& laws) that DOES respect & protect the environment; and (5) where there is a strong general respect for work ethic, intellect, healthy living, your fellow humans, and basic principles of morality among the population; where crime is low, etc.??? I suppose I may as well be looking for the lost city of Atlantis.
cuerno de chivo
Moderator
how can you scrap something that you've never had or believed in? utah has never been a bastion of freedom. if it were methodists rather than mormons, you probably couldn't own a gun.
I've been thinking about this thread for several days...
As a former pornographer, I can tell you from personal experience that pornography has no redeeming value.
There are those who would scoff at the points in this post, but as a man (or woman) thinketh, so is he. And to broaden that truism, as a society thinketh, so is it.
If this is the society that you want, so be it.
It must be what the majority wants. Look back for the last eight years. We have deception, deceit, traitorous acts, government sanctioned murder, perjury, illicit sexual acts, and theft, just to name a few.
We could have had only four years of it, but I believe that our leadership is a direct reflection of the social mindset. And we chose to continue to believe the lie.
What would happen if we found that gun control REALLY did work, that crime was really going down noticibly in the areas with the most restrictive laws.
How would we react? Would we change? Or do we just talk about truth when it meets our pre-conceived notions. (see democraticunderground.com)
Just how much do we really love the truth? Because most of the time it is hard to face.
Should we have laws banning such things? If the people pass such a law, then they obviously feel that it is for the good of their society.
There are many Mormons in Utah, and they claim to be seekers (not monopolizers) of truth. So if the people chose to pass such a law, and you don't agree with it, do you not agree with it because it is a lie, or because you are unwilling to accept the truth and change yourself? Maybe they are not so wrong after all.
There is no redeeming value to pornography.
And when any right excercised becomes destructive, then the move to stop that destruction is justifiable.
As a former pornographer, I can tell you from personal experience that pornography has no redeeming value.
- It brings pleasure, but not happiness.
- It poisons the mind with base images and empty promises.
- It reduces something that is sacred and special between two people to self-indulgent lust.
- It can be, and often is, as addictive as any drug, and just as difficult to break from.
- Over time it wrecks homes, destroys relationships (as it nearly did mine), and erodes the noblilty that is inherent in each one of us.
- The destruction that it causes is subtle and barely noticible over a short period, but it's effects are cumulative over time.
There are those who would scoff at the points in this post, but as a man (or woman) thinketh, so is he. And to broaden that truism, as a society thinketh, so is it.
If this is the society that you want, so be it.
It must be what the majority wants. Look back for the last eight years. We have deception, deceit, traitorous acts, government sanctioned murder, perjury, illicit sexual acts, and theft, just to name a few.
We could have had only four years of it, but I believe that our leadership is a direct reflection of the social mindset. And we chose to continue to believe the lie.
What would happen if we found that gun control REALLY did work, that crime was really going down noticibly in the areas with the most restrictive laws.
How would we react? Would we change? Or do we just talk about truth when it meets our pre-conceived notions. (see democraticunderground.com)
Just how much do we really love the truth? Because most of the time it is hard to face.
Should we have laws banning such things? If the people pass such a law, then they obviously feel that it is for the good of their society.
There are many Mormons in Utah, and they claim to be seekers (not monopolizers) of truth. So if the people chose to pass such a law, and you don't agree with it, do you not agree with it because it is a lie, or because you are unwilling to accept the truth and change yourself? Maybe they are not so wrong after all.
There is no redeeming value to pornography.
And when any right excercised becomes destructive, then the move to stop that destruction is justifiable.
Caeca Invidia Es
Staff Alumnus
John/az2, I do respect your point, and don't totally disagree with it. But let me reiterate my point, This is not about pornography.
Utah has always had pornography laws, that is nothing new. This is about outright censorship of anything the people in charge of this group don't like. Morals don't even come into play, it's a matter of what they percieve as "Good Taste".
They are now have the ability to not only control what you do & wear in public, but what you are able to do within your own home. Regardless of the value of pornography, I don't feel this is a way to accomplish anything.
Utah has always had pornography laws, that is nothing new. This is about outright censorship of anything the people in charge of this group don't like. Morals don't even come into play, it's a matter of what they percieve as "Good Taste".
They are now have the ability to not only control what you do & wear in public, but what you are able to do within your own home. Regardless of the value of pornography, I don't feel this is a way to accomplish anything.
Libertarian
New member
I'll stick this in quickly before the topic gets locked.
If, as Larry Flint said, if the worst of publishers isn't protected, no one is.
This is no different from good gun/bad gun laws. If any gun is banned for anything but product liablity (blowing up when used) any gun can be banned. If we want our pet freedoms, we must let others have theirs. So long as anyone is denied their Constitutional rights based on someone else's disgust, the whole of the Constitution is in danger of being subverted.
Our guns are just as reprehensible to some as porn is to some of you. Live with it or don't say a word when your rights are stripped to make someone else feel good.
If, as Larry Flint said, if the worst of publishers isn't protected, no one is.
This is no different from good gun/bad gun laws. If any gun is banned for anything but product liablity (blowing up when used) any gun can be banned. If we want our pet freedoms, we must let others have theirs. So long as anyone is denied their Constitutional rights based on someone else's disgust, the whole of the Constitution is in danger of being subverted.
Our guns are just as reprehensible to some as porn is to some of you. Live with it or don't say a word when your rights are stripped to make someone else feel good.
Matt,
I was. My family was. My society was. Go re-read my post.
Victimization takes place on both sides of the fence.
As for obscene material, I don't want my daughter or my sons to be subject to the "Big Johnson" t-shirts, or the "F!@# Off!" slogons, or other lewd comments and pictures that people think are funny or necessary.
The first amendment is not absolute, in that it does not sanction irresponsible expression.
When a society's mass mentality is such that they can sanction such unfettered expression, then they are on the brink of self destruction.
The best way, of course, is self-government. But, when an individual proves that they are not willing or capable of such action then others must step in to preserve the societal (is that even a word?) standard, thus preserving the society.
Libertarian,
You said:
The feeling that guns are "reprehensible" comes from ignorance.
Guns have a redeeming value. When used properly they are used to feed the hungry, protect the innocent, and terminate the wicked.
Porn has no redeeming value. And this is not about "feeling good." It's about truth.
Can you list any redeeming value of pornography? Without just saying that it is free expression and our right?
I can't.
I was. My family was. My society was. Go re-read my post.
Victimization takes place on both sides of the fence.
As for obscene material, I don't want my daughter or my sons to be subject to the "Big Johnson" t-shirts, or the "F!@# Off!" slogons, or other lewd comments and pictures that people think are funny or necessary.
The first amendment is not absolute, in that it does not sanction irresponsible expression.
When a society's mass mentality is such that they can sanction such unfettered expression, then they are on the brink of self destruction.
The best way, of course, is self-government. But, when an individual proves that they are not willing or capable of such action then others must step in to preserve the societal (is that even a word?) standard, thus preserving the society.
Libertarian,
You said:
The feeling that guns are "reprehensible" comes from ignorance.
Guns have a redeeming value. When used properly they are used to feed the hungry, protect the innocent, and terminate the wicked.
Porn has no redeeming value. And this is not about "feeling good." It's about truth.
Can you list any redeeming value of pornography? Without just saying that it is free expression and our right?
I can't.
TheBluesMan
Moderator Emeritus
As I see it, if this thread is about Freedom of the Press and/or Freedom of Speech, then it can stay here. If it devolves into a debate on pornography, it will get locked up.
My opinion on the flag-burning issue and the porn issue and the gun issue, and the religion issue are pretty much the same. You have to work to preserve the rights of those you detest if you are going to keep your own rights. (I can't believe that I agree with Larry Flynt)
If you don't like porn, or guns, or people burning the flag, then do something about it yourself. Don't push the government to regulate what is free speech.
John - Don't confuse Porn with Erotica. There is a difference.
My opinion on the flag-burning issue and the porn issue and the gun issue, and the religion issue are pretty much the same. You have to work to preserve the rights of those you detest if you are going to keep your own rights. (I can't believe that I agree with Larry Flynt)
If you don't like porn, or guns, or people burning the flag, then do something about it yourself. Don't push the government to regulate what is free speech.
John - Don't confuse Porn with Erotica. There is a difference.