I was loading some 45 acp on my new progressive press. I didn't realize the seater die had built up an accumulation of fine lead rings which caused the rounds to be seated too short. They are 1.190 oal. Can they safely be fired or do I need to pull them all ? There is 30 of them.
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ut oh too short oal
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
OAL for 230 Ball with elliptical ogive, like military ammo, is more like 1.265" in the ammo I've measured. The truncated cone 230 grain can easily be at 1.2, but it's a shorter bullet shape so that shorter COL doesn't necessarily seat it any more deeply into the case than the military RN. As a result, the powder space can be the same. Note that spherical tip RN shapes, common in cast bullets and some commercial RN jacketed bullets, are shorter than the military RN shape of the same weight.
Rebs,
This is all going to depend on your bullet weight and bullet shape and bullet construction type (jacketed, cast, or plated) your charge weight and what the powder is that you are using. The thing you want to do is avoid exceeding the maximum seating depth for bullets of this weight and construction (jacketed, cast, plated). It's the seating depth that matters to pressure, not a COL, unless you know that particular COL is intended for your bullet's length.
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length – COL.
COL = Case Length + Bullet Length – Seating Depth.
Use 0.898" for Case Length in the .45 Auto, and not the actual case length when making a comparison. This is because we are interested in the space between the head on the inside and the base of the bullet, not the distance from the head to the case mouth.
That said, if the difference is small, say 0.010" or even 0.020" from your original seating depth, T.O. is right that this is likely too small to make much more difference than normal shot-to-shot pressure variation produces. If you were running a +P load, I might be a little more concerned to avoid seating too deeply just to minimize the bulging of the brass and the chance of a case blow out. If not, it's fine.
Note that you can take an inertial bullet puller and but a finished cartridge in it and tap it just hard enough to make the bullet start to come out, then reseat it to the correct depth.
Rebs,
This is all going to depend on your bullet weight and bullet shape and bullet construction type (jacketed, cast, or plated) your charge weight and what the powder is that you are using. The thing you want to do is avoid exceeding the maximum seating depth for bullets of this weight and construction (jacketed, cast, plated). It's the seating depth that matters to pressure, not a COL, unless you know that particular COL is intended for your bullet's length.
Seating Depth = Case Length + Bullet Length – COL.
COL = Case Length + Bullet Length – Seating Depth.
Use 0.898" for Case Length in the .45 Auto, and not the actual case length when making a comparison. This is because we are interested in the space between the head on the inside and the base of the bullet, not the distance from the head to the case mouth.
That said, if the difference is small, say 0.010" or even 0.020" from your original seating depth, T.O. is right that this is likely too small to make much more difference than normal shot-to-shot pressure variation produces. If you were running a +P load, I might be a little more concerned to avoid seating too deeply just to minimize the bulging of the brass and the chance of a case blow out. If not, it's fine.
Note that you can take an inertial bullet puller and but a finished cartridge in it and tap it just hard enough to make the bullet start to come out, then reseat it to the correct depth.
Note that you can take an inertial bullet puller and put a finished cartridge in it and tap it just hard enough to make the bullet start to come out, then reseat it to the correct depth.
That was my first thought. ^^
Actually, I agree with everything Unclenick said; not just the above quote.
When I read the OP, here's what ran though my head:
- They're taper crimped, so tapping them out a little and re-seating shouldn't be much trouble (and there's only 30 of them).
- If it's an intermediate speed propellant (AA#5, Unique, HS-6, etc.), it probably won't matter.
- If it's a fast propellant, it probably won't matter, unless they're loaded to +P.
- If it was me, I'd only tap them out only if the above scenario (fast powder, loaded strong); otherwise, I'd just shoot 'em.
Good learning experience though. Yesterday for example: I loaded 300 rounds of 45 ACP LSWC's. I always make sure the bullet has no wax on the tip - because I know it will transfer to the seat plug and start a build up. I also keep an eye on the seat depth as I continue loading ammo. I clean up the seater plug from time to time (usually just before and/or just after a load session) - just to make sure.
How long is the bullet? Again, several profiles for 200 grain SWC's out there. That said, 4.2 grains under a 200 grain lead bullet is not a very stiff load. Probably around 11,000 psi even seated to 1.190. A normal load for 230 grain jacketed commercial hardball is equivalent to 5.0 grains of Bullseye. Maybe 17,000 psi.
polyphemus
New member
30 rounds, use some common sense,pull them and re set them.There is 30 of them.
polyphemus
New member
Two questions,Why would you say use some common sense ? Isn't it common sense to ask a question to people with experience in reloading ?
First:Because 1.190" OAL for the cartridge you refer to is SAAMI minimum and .01"under published.And since you do not offer any other load data it could be assumed that it is uncertain to you.You have then reduced cased volume by 15% with a consequent pressure increase this alone would require a common sense correction of the mistake.
Second:Yes,but under the circumstances and unless you were expecting to read
what you wanted to read not entirely necessary.
How long is the bullet? Again, several profiles for 200 grain SWC's out there. That said, 4.2 grains under a 200 grain lead bullet is not a very stiff load. Probably around 11,000 psi even seated to 1.190. A normal load for 230 grain jacketed commercial hardball is equivalent to 5.0 grains of Bullseye. Maybe 17,000 psi.
The bullet is a H&G 68 bevel base lswc, it measures 0.522 of which 0.244 is seated in the case. It is taper crimped to 0.470
Rebs,
I've shot those with up to 6 grains of Bullseye for a combat load practice at their normal seating depth (about 0.02" of shoulder out in front of the case mouth) and I know folks who've done more. You're in no trouble with 4.2 grains. Consider that a military ball round uses a 234 grain JRN bullet that is 0.68" long, typically seated to a COL of 1.260"-1.270". From the formula I gave before:
0.898" + 0.680"-1.260 = 0.318" maximum seating depth.
It's loaded to about 400 ft-lb (as compared to 350 ft-lb for commercial hardball with 230 grain bullets) using the rough equivalent of 5.1-5.2 grains of Bullseye. I've measured their pressure ranging from about 17,700-19,800 psi firing them.
Bottom line, you've got a lighter, softer bullet, a bigger powder space and a smaller charge. You have no problem.
Polyphemus,
If he were at near a maximum load (6 grains is in the Lyman data), I would agree that common sense would say to pull them down. But he's actually running in a gray area with his target loads, which is why he asked, and you can see it takes a little more detailed exploration than the average load manual offers to get a sense of the effect of the greater seating depth. QuickLOAD thinks he would have to seat to 1.030" to get the pressure up to that of the military load I mentioned, but even that estimate may be high for the reason below.
Compared to normal powder space assumptions about pressure, small powder space pistol cases are often subject to having their bullets unseated and pushed forward by the primer before the powder burn builds enough pressure to do it. This causes the actual powder space at the pressure peak to be larger than if the powder alone were doing the work. This is especially the case with lubricated lead bullets which start forward pretty easily. One of the endless experiments I've been accumulating on my list of things to get around to is to do some intentional deep seating to fire in my pressure test barrel to see how much immunity to over-deep seating that effect actually offers, as compared to what the calculated difference would be. If I get to it, I'll post the result.
The SAAMI COL range is about reliable fit and feed, only. It's not about pressure because the powder has no way to know the bullet tip position. It's the bullet base position that affects pressure, and that changes with bullet length when the COL is held constant. Technically, you have a wildcat cartridge when you go outside of SAAMI COL range, I suppose, and even if the pressure is safe, it may not feed.
A good example is .38 Special. SAAMI says the minimum COL is 1.275", and if you use a lever action carbine in .38 Special, bullets shorter than that may let the rim of the next round in the magazine reach into the carrier mouth and jam the gun. Yet, a full wadcutter is just the length of the case; 1.135"-1.155". Same with 32 S&W Long and it's wadcutter version. Both are shorter than the SAAMI minimum for the parent cartridge. SAAMI reconciles this by having separate standards for those two wadcutter loads because there are enough self-loading target pistols around that can't feed anything but the wadcutter format, contrary to the carbine rifle example. 44 wadcutter molds are available from NEI and there is no SAAMI spec for 44 Special WC's, much less any for 357 Mag and 44 Mag WC's, though the former are made up all the time and the latter are done by a few. But that fact doesn't indicate there is harm in loading them and working the loads up, even though they violate the SAAMI COL range by seating deeper. You just need target load charge weights with them.
I've shot those with up to 6 grains of Bullseye for a combat load practice at their normal seating depth (about 0.02" of shoulder out in front of the case mouth) and I know folks who've done more. You're in no trouble with 4.2 grains. Consider that a military ball round uses a 234 grain JRN bullet that is 0.68" long, typically seated to a COL of 1.260"-1.270". From the formula I gave before:
0.898" + 0.680"-1.260 = 0.318" maximum seating depth.
It's loaded to about 400 ft-lb (as compared to 350 ft-lb for commercial hardball with 230 grain bullets) using the rough equivalent of 5.1-5.2 grains of Bullseye. I've measured their pressure ranging from about 17,700-19,800 psi firing them.
Bottom line, you've got a lighter, softer bullet, a bigger powder space and a smaller charge. You have no problem.
Polyphemus,
If he were at near a maximum load (6 grains is in the Lyman data), I would agree that common sense would say to pull them down. But he's actually running in a gray area with his target loads, which is why he asked, and you can see it takes a little more detailed exploration than the average load manual offers to get a sense of the effect of the greater seating depth. QuickLOAD thinks he would have to seat to 1.030" to get the pressure up to that of the military load I mentioned, but even that estimate may be high for the reason below.
Compared to normal powder space assumptions about pressure, small powder space pistol cases are often subject to having their bullets unseated and pushed forward by the primer before the powder burn builds enough pressure to do it. This causes the actual powder space at the pressure peak to be larger than if the powder alone were doing the work. This is especially the case with lubricated lead bullets which start forward pretty easily. One of the endless experiments I've been accumulating on my list of things to get around to is to do some intentional deep seating to fire in my pressure test barrel to see how much immunity to over-deep seating that effect actually offers, as compared to what the calculated difference would be. If I get to it, I'll post the result.
The SAAMI COL range is about reliable fit and feed, only. It's not about pressure because the powder has no way to know the bullet tip position. It's the bullet base position that affects pressure, and that changes with bullet length when the COL is held constant. Technically, you have a wildcat cartridge when you go outside of SAAMI COL range, I suppose, and even if the pressure is safe, it may not feed.
A good example is .38 Special. SAAMI says the minimum COL is 1.275", and if you use a lever action carbine in .38 Special, bullets shorter than that may let the rim of the next round in the magazine reach into the carrier mouth and jam the gun. Yet, a full wadcutter is just the length of the case; 1.135"-1.155". Same with 32 S&W Long and it's wadcutter version. Both are shorter than the SAAMI minimum for the parent cartridge. SAAMI reconciles this by having separate standards for those two wadcutter loads because there are enough self-loading target pistols around that can't feed anything but the wadcutter format, contrary to the carbine rifle example. 44 wadcutter molds are available from NEI and there is no SAAMI spec for 44 Special WC's, much less any for 357 Mag and 44 Mag WC's, though the former are made up all the time and the latter are done by a few. But that fact doesn't indicate there is harm in loading them and working the loads up, even though they violate the SAAMI COL range by seating deeper. You just need target load charge weights with them.
polyphemus
New member
ok UNCLE,thanks.
My math tells me (correct me please) that a .01" increase in bullet depth results in approx.460 psi.This might be trivial in some instances but we are dealing with a mistake that can be easily rectified and with unknown load data.Why take a chance?
My math tells me (correct me please) that a .01" increase in bullet depth results in approx.460 psi.This might be trivial in some instances but we are dealing with a mistake that can be easily rectified and with unknown load data.Why take a chance?