usp 40 first round fliers

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On my new HK usp 40 im getting first round out from 3 inches to off the page,8 1/2 x 11 inch targets...
I had me and a friend do a solid rest verification at 25 yards.. ( I posted this this morning but could not find it when I got back this afternoon). my group 4 rounds was 7/8" for three shots and first shot 3 3/4 up and to the right center of the three. ..
Garys 4 round group was 3 rounds in 1 1/8 with the first round 3 1/2 inches high.. ,
Ive been researching this and recently found that the hand feeding by slide release will seat the slide and barrel differently than when a shot is fired....
http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-165642.html ...

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2012/5/1/first-shot-flyer/ ...

Sounds strange i know, but its not amusing if it is happening to you and your new 800.00 dollar purchase... How many have you had this going on with your personal defence weapon, and could you rectify it?
.Do you now of anyone having this problem?
thanks,, Dave in Helena Montana.. If your near id like to get together with you and have you see what you think about what is going on with this hk...

One post said its a tight gun, and will shoot in.. As hard as HK parts are it would be a long while... thanks again, Dave
 
thanks for your reply (:<) single action.
The problem has been ongoing for many years. And if you read the firing line post (of another occurance) listed in my first post you will see it happens with a ransom rest also..
I searched my targets again and the heavier bullets I loaded did not seem to have the same flyers, but that was a newer gun, everythingslightly different.. crimps, brass age, etc..
ill try some 165 grain gold dot tomorrow and see if it stops it... It could be the 155 hornady that could be the worst for me and my gun anyway...

NO one has been been able to prove what is causing it. only speculation.. Im looking for the guy who has solved the problem..
Well in one case a guy with a les baer or wilson, had it going on and he sent it back and it was returned without the problem anymore.. So a good custom barrel to action fit probably can fix it. (:<) dave
 
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You may be able to find ammo that minimizes this issue... I had it with a sig p229. Found ammo that minimized. Do not know exactly why, I suspect that 40 being high pressure some minimally crimped rounds set back some and hence the variation
 
That's a good point.. Or bullet shape or bullet weight that accommodate both high speed and lower speed insertion and lock up.... Going thru my targets again and again, i can see where different bullets I reload, seem to minimise the issue.. 165 gold dots being the least trouble, and 155 hornady being almost first one out on every target..180s Do not seem to be as much trouble also.. thanks for your help..
 
I've never had the issue with my USP 40S&W, but then I don'r roll my own. After owning the pistol for quite some time I had the target trigger group from the HK Tactical .45 installed in both my USP 9mm and my USP .40S&W. They were both excellent shooters beforehand and with the new trigger group have become even better. Especially the DA first shot. The SA has always been good, it just got better. I think it ran me $200 per pistol. A bargain as far as I'm concerned. Try factory ammo and see if your fliers go away and your groups tighten up. My .40S&W seems to like the 124 gr Speer Gold Dot JHP as a carry round.
 
Just retired the old many, many times fired brass. got some once fired speer sorted for oal, sorted cases for weight, will see what this does.. Certainly alot of changes,. My biggest problem is i havent shot pistol for years, and i just cant seem to get a good standard grip on this usp oversized handle. And that IS me, no doubt..
.. I appreaciate all your help. In all my years ive alway been able to beat factory loads with home loaded to guns preference..But anything can be the situation here..
The 165 speer did minimise the first shot out problem quite a bit in the past and now... Im working on that more now..
Im also pulling slide back to load instead of using slide release.. It could? be holding the slide canted by locking it on one side..
... on with the search..(:<) Dave
 
Finnaly got some decent results.. The problems with my usp 40 shooting was,
a. worn out brass, I sorted for oal, and adjusted the crimp for that, but maybe the necks probably thinner. Didnt know that would happen.

b. hold, Needed to get a load and gun hold working together, and thats alot of pancakes on the grill to manage..

I found that for me a medium grip with a light medium push pull, left finger on knuckle instead of in front of guard.. Works for me? several on line video shooters who implied they were good, would say to hold the gun with enough force till you are about to shake then back off a little, didnt work for me and wasted alot of time on that..

C. load.( 40 s&4) light load of tite group, 165 speer gold dot, light roll crimp..

Id shoot a good group, alot under 3 inches, some under 2 inches, and a few under an inch.. then id go out to repeat and it would be 5-8 inch group.. (im not including the one bullet of the right on first shot that made me finnally include the flyer in the group as the gentleman above implied.

I searched thru the huge stack of targets ive shot, found the ones without the flier, and some were very good (under 2 inches at 25 yards using all bullets in group this time)and repeated them varying holds and came up with something that actually worked well for me..

Cant shoot a running coyote at 100 yards by any means, but i had to settle on something that is do-able.. Like a 12 ounce pop can at 30 paces(with a rest).. so im alot happier now and the groups are repeatable without the flyer with the load im using...
Its hard to get a good load when you dont know how to hold it..And its hard to get a good hold if your getting fliers or poor groups.. catch 22. (:<)

thanks for your help and youve help me get there... dave
 
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Thankyou Rsqvet..,,
Your advice about Keeping in mind to find a group that minimized the cold barrel shot problem (as it seems to be called after research). I have made tremendous headway over the past weeks since I started this search and post here, with alot of work.... Here is some great reading for accuracy loading for the autos. Not much on the .40 but some on the .45, so by necessity I used that info for my study.

Here they are.. Number one, https://gunsmagazine.com/accurate-handgun-handloads/
Number 2. https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/4/07/usmc-match-45-load/

I Must eat some crow, the gun can shoot very will with the right load.. It took some doing to find it tho.... The only thing i can seem to come up with at this time with the cold barrel shot flier is maybe the bullets were too lite and powder type was wrong for consistent Pressures in this barrel for accuracy and for the my hold on this gun..
Admitidly it could be my hold causing problems. I have small hands and the usp has a very big grip..
After all I have been thru with this id believe anything. Im just glad I may have figured it out..

Number one problem was worn out brass.. I was able to fix that a couple ways. # 1. with quality once fired brass, or #2. trimming .003 off quality worn mouth brass from shooting it too many times, or #3 New quality brass.

On the trimming, I sorted (example) .845, .844, and .843 length of sized brass with same headstamp range brass and trimmed it to .840. (or you can take .847 and .846, and .845 and trim it to .843), Then instead of chamfering it, I resized it and then expand it. Essentially burnishing it, not removing much metal.. Maybe leaving a slight gripping burr. If trimming to .840 and it does not clean up (give a square edge) throw it out.. If trimming to .843 or larger and it doesnt clean up put it into the trim to .840 or .843 bag etc.. The numbers arn't carved in stone, just do what you think best for you..Some brass could be too shot out to be able to get to shoot. I dont know about that yet. Some brass cases dont give any resistance when you size it. I probably will throw them out..

I saw some 200 grain loads a several weeks back in my earlier target files that did not give flyers, but were not explored because they were larger groups than I wanted. I thought I may be able to use the bullets and change powders and amounts to come up with a good load and no fliers..

Here are the loads that put two groups without giving me a first shot flier..

First load, 200 grain hornady .400 (10 mm) xtp 5.3 grains power pistol factory crimp die 1/2 turn down after set up with slight pressure on crimper at mouth.. Both with a medium light hold on the gun, this group gave a 2.0 inch group center to center.. +- 1/32 each.. This is three shot groups with arms over bag at 25 yards..

Second load, 5.6 grains power pistol with 200 grain hornady 10mm xtp.. 1.125 oal, factory crimp die with 1/2 turn down from die when the turning down of the crimp starts to show slight pressure form touching the slightly opened bell.. This gave a 1 15/16" three shot group at 25 yards..

If I overlay the groups using the same aiming point over the other it gives me a 2 3/8" 6 shot group, no fliers... Now if i can repeat these or get some consistent decent groups without the fliers, Ill be a happy guy.

This load probably is giving good even heavy pressures, and maybe too much power for self defence, dont know the answer to that question... Maybe this heavy bullet is saying the heck with all else, im going strait down that range. (:<) Kind of like some big bores I know.... Dave
 
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Sorry, . Ive corrected that above.. 200 grain hornady xtp 10mm.. Im looking at trying the 200 grain .400 nosler and seeing which of these slow moving loads gives the best expansion. Also I need to try this for several more sessions and see if these groups are flukes or repeatable. Rarely would two groups in a row, in the same spot on the target would be a fluke, but im crossing my fingers..

The hs6 was horrible, and the power pistol was wonderfull, in this barrel for me, So in this weight bullet it could get ugly if changing componets.. But im guessing one will get lead to work if you put the time in with the 200, or get the correct rifled barrel, I dont have the answer for you on that........ I will say bullet weight on these semiautos, as with alot of guns seems to be important..

Also the overal length of the sized case may be prefered by one barrel or gun over the other, again I cant prove this but the .840 - .842 loads seemed to be prefered in my large group of targets for MY hk usp 40..

I would like to emphasize that the learning curve on this workup greatly improved with case quality.. Winchester and selier- beloit worked good for me during the tests, and the last test was range picked up federal, trimmed .003 to .840 and burnished as stated above..

One thing I did do since I shot these groups was receive the redding competition seater from midway.. It does help the case/bullet bulge I call the pregnat guppie. That along with the factory crimp die makes the bullets straiter.. Im dissappionted the redding pistol competition dies does not have the sliding sleave like thier rifle dies.

The hornady seating die I first bought has a sliding sleave, but gives me more and worse pregant guppies, but the factory crimp die sometimes will straiten that somewhat sometimes..

But still not as good as the redding competition seater.. The factory crimp dies doesnt touch the bullet much in the redding seating die loads, but sometimes constricts the base of the case as advertised. I think the competition seater has a better nose fit, and ive learned to turn the bullet several 1/4 turns just as its starts to line up and enter the case mouth and this gets it much straiter along with the competition seater setup...

It seems, but not proven, that strait bullets would group better.. Maybe the 200 grainers help this, I dont know. Maybe the longer bullets dont care if they are strait or not.. But i do believe they would give a more consistent powder burn and stability in flight.. The 165 just seemed to me, to not be stabilized., but im probably wrong on that as i dont have any proof. I would see a larger grey area around one side of the hole than the other, at the target on some flyers once in a while. No proof, that could be caused by a number of factors..

shooting the 165s at 100 yards was terrible. where most shots would be arround 3 inches or well under at 25 yards, adding to my stability concerns (with the 165 gold dot) in my gun.

I was out shooting later with this gun, and 100 yards seems to be out of reality with me, and my loads and the short site radius etc. Im blameing me, and my limitations as others could do fine at 100 yards with the usp..

thanks for your comment.
Dave (:<).
 
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