Hello I have a question. I am using reclaimed lead from a indoor range. I am using the Lee 124 RN tumble lube bullet. The problem I am having is my bullets are ranging dramatically in weight from 122-127. I started to weigh them when I was having flyers at the range, would aim center target and the bullet would go over targets right shoulder, target is 25 yards away. This is a problem since I want to use these for competition too. I am powder coating them and that is not the problem. Any idea what could be going on?
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using reclaimed lead
- Thread starter kxkid
- Start date
armoredman
New member
Bullet metal ranges from dead soft to hard as a rock, especially on an older range, if that's where you're getting them. Do you have a hardness tester? How hot are you getting your melt and mold, and are you getting good fillout, sharp edges? Losing a grain or two here and there with that particular mold, (I have the two and six cavity), is usually incomplete fillout. Make sure it's good and warmed up before you start. Then when you smelt your recovered lead, do a hardness check to see where it is Brinell. I also shoot lots of lead in that exact bullet, (oddly enough, 15 minutes before I saw this post I was finishing up a run in the six banger!), powder coated using the shake and bake method, and they tend to shoot pretty straight for me.
Good luck, and the absolute best place for cast bullet questions, is, sorry guys, castboolits.gunloads.com.
Good luck, and the absolute best place for cast bullet questions, is, sorry guys, castboolits.gunloads.com.
Buy linotype and mix with the scrap. Start with 4 parts scrap to 1 part linotype. The antimony content makes the bullets harder and larger in diameter. http://www.rotometals.com/mobile/pr...www.rotometals.com:80/product-p/linotype.htm=
Losing a grain or two here and there with that particular mold, (I have the two and six cavity), is usually incomplete fillout. Make sure it's good and warmed up before you start
The above is a good place to start with your mold. Usually those smaller bullets won't keep the mold up to temp and it needs to be poured as fast as you can go. Don't look at the bullets and to help keep the mold up to temp make sure you leave a good sized sprue on top of the plate.
I use the 6 cavity version of the Lee molds in several calibers. I have to set them on a small hotplate and bring them up to temp. The smaller the cavity the warmer they need to be, within reason. The larger the cavity the easier it is to run them as the alloy does a better job of keeping them hot.
I also try to run my alloy around 740 when using the small 356 size molds. Combine this with starting out only pouring the first two or three cavities to start with and adding a cavity after around 5-10 pours, then another after around another 5 pours. I still run them as fast as the sprue cools plus about a three count so I get a nice flat base. If you go too fast you will find some with the bases pulled or torn, then you going too fast. I don't worry about them being frosty looking, those powder coat really well.
You will also find, the cooler the mold the bigger the bullets and the hotter they get the smaller the bullets will be. Alloy can also effect this as well, but I have seen more issues with temp. All in all it is a big balancing act and keeping notes as you go will REALLY help you as you progress to other molds.
If you have an alloy thermometer, I highly suggest you start out with the alloy around 720'ish, and pour up a dozen or so bullets. Then bring it up another 10 degrees and do another dozen or so. Move up the temp until you find the sweet spot trying to keep the mold as consistent as you can to start with. The PID is the best route to go but it can be done just as easily with a little attention using a thermometer. You just have to make sure you keep you pot above half full or you will be dialing away on the control knob.
I don't know how many pounds of these I have poured, powder coated and lubed, then shot, but its been a bunch.
FrankenMauser
New member
A small weight variation like that shouldn't cause flyers on the order of magnitude you're describing.
And a 5 grain spread is fairly common for multi-cavity Lee molds, especially if you kept all of the bullets from as soon as they dropped in good shape, on up to running so hot everything was frosty and crystalline. If the variation was partially caused by heat, you should see different diameters as well - even from the same cavity.
I'd say the accuracy issue is likely due to another factor, not the mold or alloy.
Anyway... as for tracking down basic mold problems:
If your mold is the older style with V-notches and cross pins for mold block alignment, it may be a mold that doesn't align well. I have a few of these that, after substantial "massaging" and adjusting, still require very careful alignment by hand for every single poor. I can't just close the blocks, swing the sprue plate back, and cast away. I have to align the blocks, jiggle, wiggle, twist, and shift; then close the sprue plate, recheck, and give the blocks one more adjustment (and then hold everything very tight, so it doesn't move).
If it's the newer style (example), check to see if you've gotten lead splatter anywhere between the mold blocks and make sure your alignment pins are seating properly. The newer molds use notably higher quality materials and are a better design. (Still sub-par, in my opinion, but far better than the old molds.)
Mike's advice on temperature is exactly where I ended up after a lot of experimentation: Start at 720/725 F, and see how that works.
Generally, that'll run almost any Lee mold with almost any alloy, once you get the mold up to temperature. If that doesn't work, check the mold for problems again. And if that is not fruitful, try a little more heat (in the alloy and the mold blocks).
My Lee molds usually have to be running so hot that almost all bullets drop frosty, in order to stay consistent and usable (by my standards). Even then... each cavity is different in every one of my Lee molds (different diameter and weight), and each mold has its own additional set of problems to deal with - such as bad sprue plates, cavities that don't like to release, cavities that hang up with extra heat, cavities that 'hot spot' regardless of temperature, etc...
And a 5 grain spread is fairly common for multi-cavity Lee molds, especially if you kept all of the bullets from as soon as they dropped in good shape, on up to running so hot everything was frosty and crystalline. If the variation was partially caused by heat, you should see different diameters as well - even from the same cavity.
I'd say the accuracy issue is likely due to another factor, not the mold or alloy.
Anyway... as for tracking down basic mold problems:
If your mold is the older style with V-notches and cross pins for mold block alignment, it may be a mold that doesn't align well. I have a few of these that, after substantial "massaging" and adjusting, still require very careful alignment by hand for every single poor. I can't just close the blocks, swing the sprue plate back, and cast away. I have to align the blocks, jiggle, wiggle, twist, and shift; then close the sprue plate, recheck, and give the blocks one more adjustment (and then hold everything very tight, so it doesn't move).
If it's the newer style (example), check to see if you've gotten lead splatter anywhere between the mold blocks and make sure your alignment pins are seating properly. The newer molds use notably higher quality materials and are a better design. (Still sub-par, in my opinion, but far better than the old molds.)
Mike's advice on temperature is exactly where I ended up after a lot of experimentation: Start at 720/725 F, and see how that works.
Generally, that'll run almost any Lee mold with almost any alloy, once you get the mold up to temperature. If that doesn't work, check the mold for problems again. And if that is not fruitful, try a little more heat (in the alloy and the mold blocks).
My Lee molds usually have to be running so hot that almost all bullets drop frosty, in order to stay consistent and usable (by my standards). Even then... each cavity is different in every one of my Lee molds (different diameter and weight), and each mold has its own additional set of problems to deal with - such as bad sprue plates, cavities that don't like to release, cavities that hang up with extra heat, cavities that 'hot spot' regardless of temperature, etc...
As Frankenmauser said a few grain difference of weight probably isnt the issue. Ive had bad accuracy issues with 9mm and powder coat, so bad I would shoot, then stop and look at the gun like "-CENSORED--CENSORED--CENSORED-?". Try casting some bullets and just use an old school lube like 50/50 bees wax an vasoline. See how the accuracy does with say 100 rounds.
For what its worth though, Ive had good results with my 44mag and powder coat. 9mm can be kind of cantankerous when not using jacketed bullets Ive found.
For what its worth though, Ive had good results with my 44mag and powder coat. 9mm can be kind of cantankerous when not using jacketed bullets Ive found.
If you follow these two links it should get you fixed up,
Lead Thermometer
These thermometers are plenty good enough to use while pouring from a Lee pot and has a nice clip on it to hold it in place. I got mine there and I use it for numerous things.
Testing Hardness with Pencils
If you spend a little time reading on this technique you will find that it has it's merits, mainly cheap enough and accurate enough to get you by. I used this method when I started out and then a year or so later, I purchased one of the Cabine Tree Testers. My findings were that my alloy was right in the ball park of where it should have been when tested with either method.
The thing I have found to be most interesting though is that the hardness is really a non issue unless your pouring up something like HP's or you are working on some higher velocity rifle load. Yes it does come into play once you start to push things a little, but for the 380 through my 44 magnum I have found that by simply starting low and working up with my loads I usually find something very satisfactory accuracy wise before I start getting any issues with leading. As for my 9mm loads, I do not think I have leaded up the barrel on either one of mine as of yet. I use some soft stuff and I use some medium hardness stuff, but I am not pushing the envelop on either of them. I save the fast high pressure stuff for jacketed.
Lead Thermometer
These thermometers are plenty good enough to use while pouring from a Lee pot and has a nice clip on it to hold it in place. I got mine there and I use it for numerous things.
Testing Hardness with Pencils
If you spend a little time reading on this technique you will find that it has it's merits, mainly cheap enough and accurate enough to get you by. I used this method when I started out and then a year or so later, I purchased one of the Cabine Tree Testers. My findings were that my alloy was right in the ball park of where it should have been when tested with either method.
The thing I have found to be most interesting though is that the hardness is really a non issue unless your pouring up something like HP's or you are working on some higher velocity rifle load. Yes it does come into play once you start to push things a little, but for the 380 through my 44 magnum I have found that by simply starting low and working up with my loads I usually find something very satisfactory accuracy wise before I start getting any issues with leading. As for my 9mm loads, I do not think I have leaded up the barrel on either one of mine as of yet. I use some soft stuff and I use some medium hardness stuff, but I am not pushing the envelop on either of them. I save the fast high pressure stuff for jacketed.
Sure Shot Mc Gee
New member
If your powder coating (and not having a PID heat controller) best to cast your bullets frosted. Then you know you got a good mold fill out. The P/coat will cover that (shameful to some) frost look anyway. As far as weight difference between bullets. Pots to cold or mold is. Maybe both. To much mold plate lube will also inhibit a molds fill out. Some fellows heat there mold on a single burner electric hot plate while waiting on there pot lead to get up to casting temperature. You might consider doing that. (hot plate) In casting. Sometimes its best to leave things as they were intended. By that I mean maybe powder coating isn't proper for that particular bullet profile? (HP)
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The problem I am having is my bullets are ranging dramatically in weight from 122-127. I started to weigh them when I was having flyers at the range, would aim center target and the bullet would go over targets right shoulder, target is 25 yards away.
I can hit the same target without adjusting the sights at that close of a range even if I shoot 115 grain and 147 grain loads, 5 grains of weight difference is not your problem. If you want you can sort out and shoot bullets that all weigh the same and see if you can tell any difference.
The variation in weight is likely due to different alloy content. I can ask bullets from 211 grains all the way to 240 grains with the same 230 grain mold, just by changing the alloy I am casting with.
To reduce the variations smelt in the largest quantity you can. A little batch here and a little batch there will vary more than everything mixed together at the same time.
KxKid, since you describe your bullet as a RN it probably isn't the same mold I have. However, I might save someone a lot of trouble by sharing my experience with Lee - TL-356-124-TC. Made the mistake of buying it before reading reviews. After hundreds cast and countless reloads trying to find the sweet spot for this bullet I went back and read reviews. One guy described it as a "Tumbling Idiot"! That was my experience. This bullet won't even shoot well in my 9mm JRC and truly is a tumbling fool. The mold now gathers dust.
Turns out, my favorite 9mm bullet, very accurate, comes from the Lee-358-125-RF mold. I lubrisize it to .357. Seat just below the crimp groove. The COL is 1.085 inches.
Turns out, my favorite 9mm bullet, very accurate, comes from the Lee-358-125-RF mold. I lubrisize it to .357. Seat just below the crimp groove. The COL is 1.085 inches.