using hodgdon data?
- Thread starter axis223
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Here is what I do in this situation;
Look up data for the bullet/powder you are using from all sources
Write down the min/max from each source
Find a safe min/max range and stick to it in your ladder loads.
I start out using .5g increments inside my min/max range and shoot three-five rounds at each increment.
Find the most accurate one of the test(also look for pressure signs) and load .2g increments above and below that best load to dial the load in.
Its working well for me. I like to keep things simple
Look up data for the bullet/powder you are using from all sources
Write down the min/max from each source
Find a safe min/max range and stick to it in your ladder loads.
I start out using .5g increments inside my min/max range and shoot three-five rounds at each increment.
Find the most accurate one of the test(also look for pressure signs) and load .2g increments above and below that best load to dial the load in.
Its working well for me. I like to keep things simple
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FWIW I'd say take the lowest, "safest", load and start there. No down side to that, unless you're in a hurry for the "perfect" load .What are you looking for in a load? Accuracy? Velocity? Using any reloading manual's info will keep you safe. Just start low, work up (which ever way you choose) and stop when you reach your goal.
Reloading manual's data aren't hard and fast formula. They are the results of what a lab technician found when he used his powder with his components, with his equipment on a given day. YRMV!
I've found it best to stay away from "they say" and "some said" information. Stick with your reloading manuals and info from powder/bullet manufactures and you'll enjoy years and years of safe, fun shooting. Reloading forums are great, but pay very little attention to any load data found on line...
FWIW I'd say take the lowest, "safest", load and start there. No down side to that, unless you're in a hurry for the "perfect" load .What are you looking for in a load? Accuracy? Velocity? Using any reloading manual's info will keep you safe. Just start low, work up (which ever way you choose) and stop when you reach your goal.
Reloading manual's data aren't hard and fast formula. They are the results of what a lab technician found when he used his powder with his components, with his equipment on a given day. YRMV!
Some Hornady data is more conservative than some other data. I looked at a bunch of it in different chamberings one time and found that within one chambers loads would typically be anywhere from 9% lower pressure to just 1% lower.
What you want to do in that case is not guess. Use the Hornady bottom load as your starting load. Work up in 2% steps. That's going to be about half a grain in .223, as mentioned in a previous post.
The reason to start at the Hornady load is if you using a Hornady bullet. As pointed out in this article, and emphasized to me by a Speer tech over the phone, 60 years ago bullet construction and style was almost all very similar, so you could give a load based on bullet weight and whether or not it was lead or jacketed, and that was good enough. Today, with some cup and core jackets still as they were then, but others having plated jackets, others being copper solids, and some being coated and some jackets made thinner than others (match bullets, usually), you can't just look at a bullet's weight and the fact a bullet is copper-colored and say you know which loads will work with it.
So, the reason to use the Hornady data first is if you have a Hornady bullets. Always try to look at the bullet maker's data first. They may have had some experience with that bullet that didn't show up in someone else's test. But you can use the powder maker's data as a possible maximum and work up toward it slowly. You have to keep in mind that your gun likely has a little more chamber headspace than the pressure test gun did (they are made to SAAMI minimum within half a thousandth of an inch), so you may have a little less pressure.
H335 and BL-C(2) are canister grade versions of WC844 and WC846, designed for 5.56 and 7.62 ball ammunition, respectively. Both were originally just WC846. When the military tested 5.56 bullets of 55 grains with WC846, they didn't get best performance because of the light bullet weight. But they had a set-aside lot of WC846 that had proved to be too fast burning, compared to the usual WC846 (this happens with bulk grade powders sometimes; it's why the canister grade for handloading has a more tightly controlled burn rate). When they tested the fast lot in 5.56 with the 55 grain bullet, it was much more satisfactory, so they asked St. Marks to make more of the fast version for them. St. Marks did so, but created the new WC844 designation to keep the faster version separate.
The bottom line is that H335 is a good powder for bullets in the 50-60 grain range in the AR. BL-C(2) is good with 150 grain bullets in .308 Winchester and with the 169 grain and heavier bullets in .223.
Benchmark is good in 223 with the right rifle and bullet weight. You'll want to try it. Reloader 10X is good with lighter bullets, too. Winchester 748 is good with the heavier match bullets in this chambering. If you like spherical powders, Ramshot X-terminator for the 50-60 rains bullets and Ramshot TAC for the heavier target bullets are good things to try.
What you want to do in that case is not guess. Use the Hornady bottom load as your starting load. Work up in 2% steps. That's going to be about half a grain in .223, as mentioned in a previous post.
The reason to start at the Hornady load is if you using a Hornady bullet. As pointed out in this article, and emphasized to me by a Speer tech over the phone, 60 years ago bullet construction and style was almost all very similar, so you could give a load based on bullet weight and whether or not it was lead or jacketed, and that was good enough. Today, with some cup and core jackets still as they were then, but others having plated jackets, others being copper solids, and some being coated and some jackets made thinner than others (match bullets, usually), you can't just look at a bullet's weight and the fact a bullet is copper-colored and say you know which loads will work with it.
So, the reason to use the Hornady data first is if you have a Hornady bullets. Always try to look at the bullet maker's data first. They may have had some experience with that bullet that didn't show up in someone else's test. But you can use the powder maker's data as a possible maximum and work up toward it slowly. You have to keep in mind that your gun likely has a little more chamber headspace than the pressure test gun did (they are made to SAAMI minimum within half a thousandth of an inch), so you may have a little less pressure.
H335 and BL-C(2) are canister grade versions of WC844 and WC846, designed for 5.56 and 7.62 ball ammunition, respectively. Both were originally just WC846. When the military tested 5.56 bullets of 55 grains with WC846, they didn't get best performance because of the light bullet weight. But they had a set-aside lot of WC846 that had proved to be too fast burning, compared to the usual WC846 (this happens with bulk grade powders sometimes; it's why the canister grade for handloading has a more tightly controlled burn rate). When they tested the fast lot in 5.56 with the 55 grain bullet, it was much more satisfactory, so they asked St. Marks to make more of the fast version for them. St. Marks did so, but created the new WC844 designation to keep the faster version separate.
The bottom line is that H335 is a good powder for bullets in the 50-60 grain range in the AR. BL-C(2) is good with 150 grain bullets in .308 Winchester and with the 169 grain and heavier bullets in .223.
Benchmark is good in 223 with the right rifle and bullet weight. You'll want to try it. Reloader 10X is good with lighter bullets, too. Winchester 748 is good with the heavier match bullets in this chambering. If you like spherical powders, Ramshot X-terminator for the 50-60 rains bullets and Ramshot TAC for the heavier target bullets are good things to try.
Edit: Never mind; You mentioned the V-max.
Charles Petty got some good results with that bullet over 24 grains of Reloader 10X out of a Cooper Phoenix in a 2006 article. His velocities varied from 3150 to 3300 fps, depending on the primer he used. Federal 205 at the low end. I've forgotten what the high end one was.
Charles Petty got some good results with that bullet over 24 grains of Reloader 10X out of a Cooper Phoenix in a 2006 article. His velocities varied from 3150 to 3300 fps, depending on the primer he used. Federal 205 at the low end. I've forgotten what the high end one was.
Hornady max data is mild with H335 and 55 grain bullets. In this instance with this powder and bullet weight I believe Hodgdon's max data is more realistic. I suggest starting with Hornady data and work up carefully to Hodgdon's max data watching for pressure signs. Hornady hasn't bothered to retest it's data for H335 with 55 grain bullets in years. Same data using the same 26" barrel bolt rifle has been in every edition for years past. You would think that the most popular caliber, most popular .223 bullet weight, and probably the most popular powder that they would retest in both bolt action rifles and AR-15's. No, they post the same data in every edition. Some other sources for .223 and 55 grain bullets with H335 is WAY too hot. I would compare all data sources with H335 and 55 gr. bullets in .223 Rem and eventually you'll find Hodgdon is most realistic. Any data sources that exceed Hodgdon's maximum for .223, 55 gr. bullets, and H335 powder is going into dangerous territory in my opinion.
There was a time that I went from book to book looking for the largest possible charge, regardless of the source, and I was stupid to do so.
Now, I choose the most reputable company or a middle charge. In this case, it's hard. Trust the higher charge of the company that makes it, or another reliable source? I'd start midway through the hornady and not go any higher than the middle of the hodgdon. I quit chasing velocity. Looking back I realise that I did some really foolish things.
The best thing you can do is get a chronograph, and as your velocities and charges climb, stop as you reach the upper limit of max charges for either one.
Now, I choose the most reputable company or a middle charge. In this case, it's hard. Trust the higher charge of the company that makes it, or another reliable source? I'd start midway through the hornady and not go any higher than the middle of the hodgdon. I quit chasing velocity. Looking back I realise that I did some really foolish things.
The best thing you can do is get a chronograph, and as your velocities and charges climb, stop as you reach the upper limit of max charges for either one.
Hodgdon makes the powder. Hornady makes bullets. The powder maker's data is usually more accurate. Mind you, Hodgdon's site has gotten kind of odd with them saying to use a magnum primer with magnum cartridges but not others. Manual does not.
However, every manual reflects data complied on the day of the tests using the specific components given. All of it is safe and that's the important part.
"...running out of Rem brass..." How? Brass doesn't go bad. If the primers will stay in and the lengths are ok with no cracked mouths, brass is good.
However, every manual reflects data complied on the day of the tests using the specific components given. All of it is safe and that's the important part.
"...running out of Rem brass..." How? Brass doesn't go bad. If the primers will stay in and the lengths are ok with no cracked mouths, brass is good.
"...disappeared..." .30 Carbine does that. Goes into The Twilight Zone of long grass. Never hurts to have piles of brass. Have literally hundreds of .38 Special cases for no apparent reason myself. And roughly 500 .41 AE cases I bought when I bought the barrel. Wouldn't be able to shoot it at all if I hadn't had the money and foresight.
Magnum primers are about the powder used, only. Don't think there's any regular/normal/common .223 powder that needs 'em. Not needed unless the manual says to use 'em, but they have nothing whatever to do with the cartridge name. They do tend to enhance ignition of 'normal' powders in extreme cold weather though.
Magnum primers are about the powder used, only. Don't think there's any regular/normal/common .223 powder that needs 'em. Not needed unless the manual says to use 'em, but they have nothing whatever to do with the cartridge name. They do tend to enhance ignition of 'normal' powders in extreme cold weather though.
Lost brass? Gotta love it. My m&p .380 is unbearable. It hits me all over. It disappears into thin air. The last range session, I found a round over twenty feet behind and left. I lose half of it every time, but find maybe twice what I fire in other rounds. I can tell by the primers.
I have experimented with H335 and 55 gr in the 223:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561516
I have found the SAAMI registered max average pressure to have generous safety margins in the 223 case head.
I may exploit those margins in a bolt gun or single shot, but in a non adjustable gas gun, I must tune the [gas pressure x time] to gun.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561516
I have found the SAAMI registered max average pressure to have generous safety margins in the 223 case head.
I may exploit those margins in a bolt gun or single shot, but in a non adjustable gas gun, I must tune the [gas pressure x time] to gun.