Using Deadly Force

G

Glockaholic21

Inactive
Hi All,
Does anyone know any good books about the use, specific the legality, of using deadly force? I live in Philadelphia, and have a concealed weapons permit. I also have a situation 2 of my friends were in. My 2 friends were walking down the street in their neighborhood (A relatively safe neighborhood) and a car with 5 guys pulled up, and one of the guys had something in a paper bag which he claimed was a gun. My 2 friends wound up fighting the guys and they eventually left. Would deadly force be authorized since the guy said a gun was inside the paper bag, even though they didn't visually see it? I am aware that deadly force is the last option, but if I was in that situation, I would have put one in him. I wouldn't plan on turning around to run in case of getting shot in the back. Thanks
 
Doesn't matter what they saw as far as the gun, it matters what they reasonably believed. How did they know he had a gun if they didn't see it?
 
Does anyone know any good books about the use, specific the legality, of using deadly force?
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Use the search function. There must be almost as many threads about who has the best/worst book/website on the use of deadly force and who does/does not know how to read the law as written in every one of the states/cities/counties/podunk potholes as there are threads about what calibre is best for "this" "that" or "the other" situation.

stay safe.

skidmark
 
I have to wonder how in the tarnation you got a concealed weapon liscense without knowing when you can legally employ lethal force?? How can you walk around with a gun and not know when you can use it? Did you sleep through that part of the course, or does PA only give liscenses to political cronies?

The laws will be different in each state, and even within a given state may be interpereted differently in different areas. The best info on this will come from your local DA. It is up to you to know the laws of your area, not internet or literary speculation.

I'll give you my opinion, based on my area, North Louisiana. This may not hold true in your area, PA. Had your friend pulled a gun and used it under those circumstances here, he would very likely be charged with second degree murder IF he managed to kill someone. I say IF because shooting someone in a moving car is not an easy task. No other gun was visible. Instead your friend chose to fight. I don't think he would fare well in court, especially if he has a history of this behavior. He might be able to cop a plea for manslaughter, but in my area he would likely end up doing time. Consider to, that I live in an area where no-billed SD shootings occur at a rate of several a year. I don't know about PA though.

Check out Packing.org

Oh, Welcome to The Firing Line! :) I don't mean to sound harsh, but carrying a gun without knowing the law is inconcievable to me!
 
Deadly Force

X, I am a Criminal Justice major (senior) and new laws are made EVERY day that ordinary citizens are not even aware of. Let me tell you the process in Philadelphia that one goes through to obtain a concealed weapons permit. First, the applicant goes to the place where you pick up an application form, fill it out and return to the place. They then ask the applicant a series of questions concerning mental state, arrest record, etc. The applicant is fingerprinted and a background test is conducted. In one month, the applicant is notified whether he/she passed the background check and THATS IT. I AM AWARE of when I can legally employ it, and that's when my life is in danger and all options to flee or avoid using deadly force are exhausted. The circumstances I gave in the above story are a perfect example of how someone sensible might question whether it can be employed without legal difficulty. The second that guy said to my friend he had a gun in the bag, I would be justified in shooting to kill him. Would it be better to second guess with something like that. My eye glasses are not equipped with x-ray vision. Second degree murder? I think not. Situations like this go down in seconds, and you have to act based on what you know from the person that might be robbing/murdering you. IN Philadelphia, the murder rate by firearm is about 82%. I personally enjoy reading up on any legal cases or laws enacted, so I am fully aware of what my rights are.
 
I assume the paper bag did not contain a gun, since your buddy decided to engage in a fist fight with bag man, and did not get shot.

The risk of getting shot by a gun concealed in a bag is rather low, since it is difficult to aim a gun concealed in a bag. Yes, it could happen, but lateral movement will take away any point shooting skill this BG would possess, if he had any at all.

Shooting and killing a man armed with a tuna sandwich in a bag is not likely to be seen as justifiable homocide by most District Attorneys, let along jurors, regardless of claims that the tuna sandwich was a gun. Most DAs would not no-bill such an incident, simply because it IS questionable.

This falls into the realm of a reasonable man's fear of imminent danger. The imminent danger was enough to make your friend engage in fisticuffs with a man he believed had a gun in a bag aimed at him? Come on, if you were on a jury, would you buy that? Non-suicidal people do not enter a gun fight armed with thier fists. Therefore, it is readily apparent your buddy did not really believe a gun was in the bag. If he did not believe a gun was in the bag, then even under your standard he is not justified in shooting.

You are presenting a tough situation, but the very fact that your friend decided to stay and fight a supposed gun with his fists shows that he was not in fear of his life.
 
If he did not believe a gun was in the bag, then even under your standard he is not justified in shooting.
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It would seem to me that the friend was not justified in fighting at all, as he was not presented with anything he considered an actual, imminent threat.
 
This is in reply to XavierB. I could see how in some states; like mine, one could not know exactly when they are justified in the use of deadly force. In Alabama you go in and fill out a little form with name, DOB, and reason for wanting to carry. I believe there my be some other idenifier on there. That takes maybe all of 3min. Officer signs the form and the consealed carry permit is printed and handed to you right there. Whole process takes <10min. No courses required or anything else. So it's left up to the user to find out their times of justification on use of deadly force.

Course most of us that want to carry take the time to find out what the legalities are in the use of our weapon.
 
So it's left up to the user to find out their times of justification on use of deadly force.
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Payne,
You are of course correct, and it's that way in PA too. I was wrong, and surrender and fall on my sword on that point. I still find it to be inconcievable that a person would not research this on thier own prior to carrying a gun though.

I also agree that a paper bag threat is not enough reason to start a fight. However, the fight itself shows that the friend did not believe a gun was in the bag. That is my point.
 
Try walking into a bank and telling the teller that you have a gun in a bag . If the button gets pushed and you get caught the fact that you didn't have a gun after all will allow you to walk . NO ??? Why not ???
Don't most if not all states have laws designed for a "reasonable person"??? If I say that I'm gonna Kick Your Azz while walking towards you can you punch me in the face as a pre-emptive strike of self defense ? Better yet . Walk into the police station and point the bag at the Desk Sargeant and announce you have a gun . I doubt that we'll be hearing from you again and the cop that dropped you will get a commendation .
 
Deadly Force

Just because my 2 friends fought these guys doesn't mean they didn't think or were under the impression that he had a gun. They were just dumb. Again, I will resort to the fact that you NEVER know what anyone's intentions are. "The risk of getting accurately shot by a gun in a bag concealed is low?" Let me get a paper bag and stand still. But wait, although I said there is a gun in a bag, you can't see through, you wouldn't take it seriously. X, you must live in a very peaceful community. The only "laws" needed when carrying with a permit are a cool head, and common sense. Knowing more would be helpful, but isn't necessary. Situations like this take seconds, car pulls up and a guy comes out with a supposed gun. He says it's a gun, I might go to draw and light him up to. Why? Does that mean I am stupid? No one likes to leave witnesses. There are a lot of different scenarios that could play out in a situation like that. A medical worker was carjacked by 2 thugs a few years ago, they brought her to the park near the creak, a few blocks from where I used to live, raped her, tried to drown her, then bashed her head in with a rock. She shouldn't have even complied to get into the car to go with them. She might be still breathing today. If there is unavoidable life-threatening danger you think you are in, then that's where deadly force comes in. Follow that, and you are safe from any legalities if you did happen to use deadly force. "Non-suicidal people do not enter a gun fight armed with thier fists" Hahahah, getting on their knees might not be beneficial either. Compliance can either help you or screw you, but YOU NEVER KNOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! paratrooper, very good argument.
 
Actually Glockaholic, I do not live in a very peaceful place, and I have used used lethal force in my own defense. The line of when lethal force can/should be employed is ultimately as much an individual decision as a legal question. This is not about an opportunity to use a gun in self defense. It is about staying alive. The individual making the decision will deal with it the rest of thier lives.

You posted your scenerio here for opinions and you got one you did not like. Whoopdedoo. Someone does not agree with you. Everyone does not share your opinion. Your opinion is not fact. Agree to disagree. I will not convince you, you will not convince me.

Go ahead and "light up" a man with a threatening paper bag. It is you who makes that decision, and you who will deal with the consequences.

I'm out.
 
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