Used HK USP sold as NEW by dealer. help?

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Joe Mama

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Just being the curious type, I called HK on a HK USP 9mm I bought 8/19/99 today. I asked if they could tell me the date of manufacture. After providing the date code stamped in the slide (KF) they informed me it was manufactured in 1995.

I asked the dealer twice before I bought it if it was a new gun, and he answered in the affirmative both times. The receipt states it is new. Upon inspection, I found wear on the barrel from the slide and a sloppy touchup with a felt tip on the breach.

Question: Is it a violation of Federal statute to sell a used firearm as new?

I have already attempted to return it for a refund without success. He (the dealer) stonewalls and says it is new. The dealer claims it just came in a week ago. HK says no way a USP sits on the shelf for five to six years. Suggestions?


I also posted this on the legal forum. I'll post the name and address of the dealer after this is resolved so that others might avoid the same fate.

Help is appreciated.
 
Its possible that the dealer himself used the gun for 5 years, and just now decided to sell it as "new."
I guess it could be considered "new" if it has never been sold by the dealer, but in that case, he's lying to you about having received it just a few weeks ago. If he's not lying, then its possible a distributer had it for 5 years. In either case, it wouldn't really be a new gun, and I think you have a legitimate complaint.
If the dealer is refusing to give you your money back, report him to the Better Business Bureau (or let him know you'll do this to see if he'll change his mind), then if that fails, take him to small claims court.
Make sure you get written documentation from HK regarding its date of manufacture.
 
First, here is an option.

Write an polite business letter to HK detailing your suspicions about buying a used HK weapon sold as new.

Give them the serial number, model and caliber and ask when and to who the gun was originally shipped and when.

Supply them with the name and addres of the dealer and ask them if the dealer is an HK stocking dealer. They will know what you mean. They have control over stocking dealers but if your dealer got the gun from a supplier/distributor, they may not be too interested in helping you.

If the dealer is a stocking dealer, advise HK that one of their dealers is passing off used guns as new and you would like their assistance in rectifying the situation.

You could address the letter to Mr. Jim Woods. He was last I knew, CEO/President of HK USA. You could call first to verify this fact.

You could also send a copy of the letter to your dealer at the same time.

------------------
"New Jersey... The First Communist State in The Union"

Jim



[This message has been edited by JMC (edited August 21, 1999).]
 
Just because it was manufactured in 1995 doesn't mean it is used. I bought a USP40 in 8/97 and it was manufactured in 1995. What did it come with? Was there a warranty card included? H&K test fires the gun at the factory and it will show a little bit of wear. I don't know what advice to give you, but if the warranty card is not filled out, it is probably new or at least H&K will view it that way.
 
First, let me say that poor business practices are unacceptable and should be reported to the Better Business Bureau and if applicable, ATF and the manufacturer. If this guy is not a stocking HK dealer, there is little HK can do. From what I read in your post, there was nothing illegal for the ATF to investigate.

Since I have not seen your pistol, I do not know if it is in fact new or used. It is possible to have a "new" gun that has been in storage for 5 years. How does the bore look? Do the sharp edges of the slide show holster wear? Is there carbon/graphite residue from previous firings that was not removed from the guts of the slide (HK does factory test fire but, not a full box or two to leave much residue).

If this pistol in question has been on display a while, people/customers cycling the slide can cause the wear I suspect you are concerned with. Using the felt pen tip may not be the best thing in the world but, it puts the eye appeal back.

What is the overall condition of the rest of the pistol? Do the mags show excessive wear (they will have some drag marks because customers will insert them and drop them over time)? Does the rest of the pistol look worn and feel loose?

If you are convinced this pistol has been fired by people other then the factory, the next best thing to getting your money back or exchanging it for a crispy new pistol would be sending it back to HK for a Tech Inspection (or to a certified HK armorer, perhaps your local law enforcement agency weapons department can point you in the right direction).

I do not like seeing buyers remorse but, it happens for many reasons. Sometimes the seller is at fault, sometimes the buyer but, most of the time a combination of the two and poor communication skills are at work. I do not know what the situation is between yourself and this dealer so, please don't take this comment as a criticism of you.

A couple of more general thoughts.....

Know who you are dealing with. When you buy at a retail storefront at a retail price, you should expect and deserve service that is first class all the way. If the storefront is not a large established business known in the community for a long time, check to see if they are a "STOCKING DEALER" for the manufacturer in question. That helps to ensure some level of knowledge and honesty.

If you buy at a gun show, buy from someone who hits all the local shows time after time that people recoginize. You may pay a little more but, you generally avoid the crooks/shysters. Please remember, you normally get what you pay for so, if it looks to good to be true, it probably is. If you have the knowledge and skill to tell a great deal from a lemon then, buy all means, save some money but, spending a little more today may save money and grief tomorrow if you are less experienced.

Is a pistol that is never fired and left in someone's night stand still a new pistol? This is a question that shows up more then you think with all the gun scares that go on (thanks HCI, ACLU, and all you feel good politicians concerned with 6 second sound bites...). To my way of thinking, a 'used' (or previously sold) unfired pistol most likely is in NIB condition (or near New In Box condition depending on sharp edge wear generally seen at the muzzle end of the slide) but, is not a new gun as customers mean it so, the dealer is obligated to disclose this fact so the customer understands what they are buying. These pistols can be a great deal for the retail consumer because they are mechancically new with very few minor cosmetic blems that will be covered up in normal shooting with the slide cycling and brass being ejected. Add holster wear and being laid down on benches and .... well ....

If you can get a pistol like this at less then retail price, I see no reason to spend the extra money unless it is very important to you to have an absolutely NIB firearm since the finish is the only thing with wear and the mechanical service life of the firearm is not affected at all.

I hope this helps you. Good luck with resolving this fairly and equitably.

Sid
---
Tx FFL
 
First off, You HAVE to verify if it is in fact a USED pistol.

If NOT... then your okay...
If it IS... then go to your dealer with your proof. Show him and tell him that unless he takes the return, he has lost a customer and won a legal action against him. The very least he should do is take the gun back and give you store credit that you can apply to a new pistol.

There are other things you could do too... But being a TFL member - we try to take the high road first. ;)

------------------
"America is a melting pot, the people at the bottom get burned while all the scum floats to the top."


RAGE AGAINST THE MACHINE
The Critic formerly known as Kodiac
 
Thanks for all the replies. A few comments of my own:

As to whether it was "new": New means new, not 5 years old, or "only slightly" used. No Clintonesque "it depends on your definition of "new"".

I wonder if a car dealer could get away with driving a unit for a couple of years, repaint it, replace the instrument cluster and sell it as new, so long as the warranty card was not filled out. I already know the answer is a definitive NO.

As a computer dealer, I can't use a computer for ANY period of time and sell it as new, ever.

To the writer that bought a '95 in '97: It is now closer to 2000. Legislation and Y2k concerns are fueling demand to where gun inventories are turning over far more rapidly than 3 years ago. Less than 60 days average from manfacture to end-user sale.

If I did not state it above, the dealer assured me it had "just come in" the previous week. So much for that item misplaced at the back of the shelf.

I will ask to see the ATF record of where he purchased it.

HK is in the process of running a history for me (Monday 8/23). The dealer is not HK authorized, although he represented himself as such. I'm taking the weapon to an authorized HK dealer today to ascertain the degree of previous use.

To the TX FFL: No buyers remorse, just a dimly lit storefront interior. I'm going to get a replacement from an authorized dealer.

I appreciate the Caveat Emptor, but bad apples like this will only serve to spoil the barrel. I have a policy of getting the word out on rogue dealers in my field, FFLs should too.

As I said above, I'll post the results of my efforts. Make that a crusade.

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Mama (edited August 21, 1999).]
 
Hi Joe,

Your definition of new would surprise a lot of collectors who frequently use the term "new in box" for a gun many years old.

Jim
 
Jim:

I suppose those same collectors would be suprised to find wear and tear on same.

One last time: The receipt says NEW. Not classic, not good as, not used-new, NEW!. Whether the price that I negotiated is "a good deal" is irrelevant.

Joe

BTW: The ATF, AG and HK all agree with the intepretation that Websters and any competent judge would have.

I'm tired of this BS.

Perhaps I will just resolve to eat the loss.

"I go forth from this place to fight again no more"

Chief Joseph of the Nez Pierce

'nuff said.

Cheers

Joe

[This message has been edited by Joe Mama (edited August 22, 1999).]
 
Dear Joe,
This wouldn't be Valley Firearms in Shelton, Conn. would it? I don't hesitate to mention their name because they did the same thing to my buddy. They advertised a %99 gun, NIB. It had more than 800 rounds through it in my estimation. Their story... it had sat on the shelf for 5 years till they sold it the week before to a guy that brought it back the next day, unfired.

Post the name of the store. Help out the rest of us.

By the way, H & K wants a bill of sale from an H & K dealer, along with the warranty card. If you get an unfilled out warranty card with a used gun, it is no good for you.
 
Last May I bought a new pre-ban Glock 17 from a dealer. When the ban was coming, he stocked up on as many 17s as he could get, and this was the last one. Though it was manufactured in 1994, it had never been sold, and there was a little slide wear from sitting in the box for 5 years. It had the warranty card, the manual, 2 hi-caps, rods and tupperware box. It had never been fired, and I considered it new.
 
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