USA/Chinese/Russian alliance rather than USA/Saudi/France/Germany?

S

seth

New member
Note: This is a continuation of the "Made in the USA" thread from the semiauto forum....

I am buying ALL CHINESE from here on out. They need the money to build up their armed services, keep their economy strong, and crush all the freedom-loving people everywhere when they get strong enough. YAYYYY CHINA! WOO-HOO! COMMUNISM REALLY DOES PAY OFF! Thank you Richard Nixon for getting the ball, er, money, rolling into China. Who would've thought, back in '71, that such a gesture on behalf of our American corporations, could have helped the Red Chinese down the road to world economic domination?"
Click to expand...

I would MUCH rather see a strong China or strong Russia than a strong France, Germany, North Korea, Iran, Syria, or Saudi Arabia.

THINK:
Though organized religion is discouraged by the fascist/pseudo communist government, a majority of Chinese are Buddhist/Taoist/Christian/Falung Gong.
In Russia, a majority of the population is Orthodox CHRISTIAN. (YES, CHRISTIAN).
The Chinese have the population (and good food), the Russians have the land (and the babes).
They're not Arab/Muslim/Fundamentalists that want to behead the infidels (yes, that's you and me, Bob).
With the rate of investment and economic growth, Russia and China are far more likely candidates to join the US as "superpowers" than say, North Korea or France. BTW: Russia has plenty of oil---it's just a matter of kissing their ass as opposed to public-beheadings-daily-on-state-run-TV Saudi Arabia.

And you want a weaker China while countries like France continue to purposefully drive up the value of the Euro in order to stomp the value of the dollar into the dirt? (not to mention talk **** about us in front of the world and do business with ex-"President" Saddam Hussein).

I'm all for slamming China for its fascist government, but with proper encouragement and the passing of the "old school" Commie party leaders, a Free Chinese Republic would be something I can see the USA benefiting from if we extended our hand.

I know this scenario won't happen any time soon---but in a decade, maybe two, with the younger, educated generation assuming command of the country (as well as the rate of foreign investment), I think a Democractic/Free China is on the horizon. Ditto for Russia. Besides, when fighting Islamic terrorism, I'd much rather have Chinese Buddhists/Christians and Russian Orthodox Christians for backup than Saudi/Iraqi Muslims.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if and WHEN China finally abandons communism/fascism (and it's inevitable---look at the new, younger Premier, Wu Jintao....he's WAY more liberal and free-thinking than his predecessors), and Russia's government and economy returns to pre-Soviet collapse levels, the USA has more to gain by offering an economic and military friendship with the two countries, rather than attempting to appease the French, Saudis, Pakistanis, Germans, etc.

Just my two cents ;)
 
huh interesting post.

more then likely russia and china will move toward more democratic ways in the foreseable future(both are somewhat).

Also we should have nothing to do with saudia arabia as far as Im concerned.

my question is what do you have against france and germany?
 
Interesting ideas Seth, though far too simplistic IMO. I don't see a "democratic, free China" happening in any of our lifetimes. Has this "economic carrot" theory ever panned out anywhere in the world? That was Nixon's idea back in '71. The collapse of the Chinese system is not necessarily "inevitable". Upon what do you base this idea? Russia went bankrupt and broke apart. Is Russia, or any of the former republics (the SSR's) any more prosperous or freer? How'd you like to live in Bosnia? How about the former East Germany? China is not in any danger of bankruptcy (outside of moral) as long as they have the run of the world's markets. Funny you mention their future leadership, who do you think educated them and their subjects? Why would they abandon a system that pays so well? Remember this age-old rule of any system of government: The system works first and foremost to preserve the status quo (especially if it is successful). The idealistic future you write of has NO REASON to occur. There are NO conditions present to make it more attractive to the Chinese government than the wildly successful system they are running today. No incentive for change that I can see. Yes, the muslim fundamentalists have been beheading the "infidels", but MAO killed 8,000,000 during the "cultural revolution". The Islamo-fascists have NOTHING on the Chinese. They are having their cake, and eating ours, too! BTW, the Chinese have been running joint military excercises with Russia. Ask these questions when considering world politics: Who are your friends? Who comes to your aid in time of need? Not such a rosy world, huh?
Josh
 
The US, China, and Russia are competitors on the world stage. Each wants, and will create, a sphere of influence. During the Cold War, the competition was mainly military, often conducted through proxies. Today, the competition is increasingly economic.

Other than religion, what do you think has historically been the most frequent cause of wars?
 
I am presenting a rather optimistic future---but just because it's optimistic, doesn't mean it's impossible.

I have nothing directly against the French, other than them being a dangerous adversary in the political arena. They can't harm us using their pitiful military, but they can attack our economy by devaluing our dollar in favor of the Euro.

JDB:
If you think the Chinese are going to accept the pseudocommunist government much longer, take a look at 1989's Tiananmen square. Over 6000 students who gave their lives for their crudely contructed "Lady Liberty" believed that a stake at freedom was worth dying for. The change may not be immediate, but from a sociological standpoint, it's absurd to believe that the Chinese populace will continue to pledge support for the government forever- especially with the effects of globalization introducing new thoughts, ideas, and values.

Besides, China isn't really communist anymore. They have taxes, currency, and a free-market system that is based on the premises of supply and demand. Sound familiar? They are a capitalist country with zero regard for human rights, when it comes down to it. However, how many beatings can a captive animal take before it turns on its master?

Here's an interesting article on why the US would benefit from an alliance with Russia: http://www.cdi.org/russia/236-13.cfm
 
I don't believe the Chinese have anything like a "market economy" as we understand it. Lately officials have stated publicly that they will "allow a few more millionaires" to develop in their country. Gee, thank you sooo much... Tiannemen square is but a blip on the long timeline of BRUTAL repression of any and all dissention allowed to publicly exist. What reforms came out of the altercation? That was 16 years ago. has anythng else happened? Has the Chinese government loosened restrictions on information, the internet(that they have successfully all but blocked off the outside world from their people), public demonstrations, freedom of religion, or public discourse critical of their government? I didn't think so. It took them a WEEK to admit they had a terrible refinery disaster and leakage of BENZINE into people's lives. I see little reason for optimism regarding real political reform in China. Let's look at another country, the United States. Now that the generation that burned draft cards is firmly in power what has changed that was so loudly RAILED against in those heady days? Well? have we become anything like the utopia that "revolution" was to bring about? Are we a more peaceful country? Whatever happened to "free love"? I try to be optimistic, but most of that optimism turns out to be denial. For me, the years of direct observation have helped me maintain my overly healthy cynicism. Many years ago, I overheard my father having a discussion with a local cleric. My father's position was that, if there was a prevailing force in the world, it was evil. That position has only been strengthened in the years since then. While I do respect optimism, It's a "hardball" world out there, always has been, and most of the players understand what that means. Make no mistake who calls the shots in China. Ask the former followers of "Falun gong".
P.S. that article you cite is from '03 and hopelessly outdated for modern purposes, so I didn't bother to respond to it. I'd like to recommend this book ('04) that was more to the point of my position:
http://www.ebooks.com/ebooks/book_display.asp?IID=224379
Josh
 
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I don't really see the need for an alliance at all, besides USA/UK/Canada/Taiwan/Israel. Let the Europeans worry about Europe, let the Russians worry about the Chinese, and lets build a bunch of nuclear power plants, so we can tell Saudi to go to hell.
 
Good thinking Rebar. A viable "rear end" for nuclear power should be actively pursued. These "temporary" storage ponds have got to go. It would be great to flush the House of Saud once and for all. They have been exporting terrorism far too long. Take away the western money and watch them fall back into the abyss they rose from. Will the Chinese rescue them? Hmmmmm.
Josh
 
J.b.d.: I would bet dollars to donuts that the chinese would have no problem picking up where we left off. Actually I wish it could happen right now. Maybe some of the hard core nut jobs over there would start hating the chinese over us, win/win situation.
 
J: now that is some funny chit.

best part:
"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your
tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling,
'You want a piece of me?"
Click to expand...
 
The problem that I can see with the USA "closing the borders" and withdrawing from the world, militarily and politically, is that in the present day, we are still reliant on the Japanese for technology, the Saudis for oil, and the Chinese for cheap labor. As a country, we are interdependent with the rest of the world, whether we like it or not.

This is why I recommended a bit more overtures towards Russia (and the same for China, if and when the population decides to overthrow the totalitarian government), as Russia has much more to offer in terms of potential investment and natural resources than some of our other allies (France, Israel, Mexico, etc).

Sure, if we have Fusion reactors that ran off of seawater, decent sports cars that weren't V8s, a semiconductor chip industry as strong as Japan's, decent semiauto handguns (besides the 1911), then we could seriously give the finger to the rest of the world and let them "Sort it out" while we sit at home in prosperity.

...However, that's not the way the world works, at least not today.

Wouldn't you rather have Russian oil than Saudi oil? At least the Russians don't condone beaheading Christian teenage schoolgirls and female castration in the name of Islam.

Additionally, would we have more to gain from Russia than just oil? What do we get from the Saudis? Oil. Period. What do we get from the French? A lot of headache and Evian bottled water. What can we get from the Russians? Think uranium (for reactors, not weapons), increased cooperation with the space program, decent assault rifles that don't jam when fighting in the Middle East, and gigantic tracts of land available for American investment.

Think of it that way, and then ponder: Should we become allies with countries that can really help us both in the present AND the future, rather than having them become enemies/competitors? What would we lose, exactly, if we suddenly dropped Saudi Arabia and France, especially if we looked to Russian oil/domestic renewable energy?
 
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