While looking for a replacement spring on the magazine release for the used 1911, I ran across this old breaktop, made by the US Revolver Co. For $95, it was in pretty good shape, so I got it to keep around the apartment with my other guns. It is chambered in 38 S&W, 5 shots, has a pretty nice trigger, and has a grip about the size of my S&W Model 36. Anyone know when it might date back to? There's only one serial number 24xxx at the bottom of the trigger guard and the barrell is 3.25", so I know nothing about its origin. Thanks.
US Revolver Co. Breaktop?
- Thread starter StephenT
- Start date
Caution
I have no info on that maker but..........I have seen several .38 S&W top breaks of assorted other brands that had through bored chambers. This can be hazardous to your health if a mistake is made and a warmish .38spec is fired. Two problems with firing .38spec loads in the old pots. One is that they weren't designed for the additional pressure and Two is that the .38 S&W case is a tad larger in diameter so the .38spec case doesn't get the support it would have if fired in a properly chambered gun.
Enjoy but be carefull.
Sam
I have no info on that maker but..........I have seen several .38 S&W top breaks of assorted other brands that had through bored chambers. This can be hazardous to your health if a mistake is made and a warmish .38spec is fired. Two problems with firing .38spec loads in the old pots. One is that they weren't designed for the additional pressure and Two is that the .38 S&W case is a tad larger in diameter so the .38spec case doesn't get the support it would have if fired in a properly chambered gun.
Enjoy but be carefull.
Sam
Mike Irwin
Staff
US Revolver Company was a jobber name used by Iver Johnson.
The designs are basic Iver Johnson, but they weren't made to quite the same level of finish.
As such, they were normally a few dollars cheaper than the IJ branded guns.
Most were sold through the catalog warehouses, like Sears, Monkey Ward, etc., and through hardware stores.
They were cheap but reliable.
I think IJ started making under that name in the late 1890s or the early 1900s, and kept making them until the 1920s.
The designs are basic Iver Johnson, but they weren't made to quite the same level of finish.
As such, they were normally a few dollars cheaper than the IJ branded guns.
Most were sold through the catalog warehouses, like Sears, Monkey Ward, etc., and through hardware stores.
They were cheap but reliable.
I think IJ started making under that name in the late 1890s or the early 1900s, and kept making them until the 1920s.
Stephen, you might want to see if .38 spec will chamber, if it won't that would be good. You wouldn't have the possibility of somebody else tryin it with an overly nasty load. Not too long ago was playin with an Iver Johnson that might have been a sister to yours. .357 mag Cor-Bon would chamber but not close, but it could have fired .357 wadcutter. Bloody scary idea.
Sam
Sam
Mike Irwin
Staff
"Little play in the cylinder with the hammer cocked..."
Actually, perfectly normal in these guns as they came from the factory.
Actually, perfectly normal in these guns as they came from the factory.
P
PreserveFreedom
Guest
For $95, I'd say you did pretty good. 
Sounds like the perfect gun to load and forget about until it's needed. It's also a little piece of history.
Sounds like the perfect gun to load and forget about until it's needed. It's also a little piece of history.My grandfather had an Iver Johnson 38 s&w breaktop in the Alaskan gold rush.
So when I see one at the gun show, if it works, I offer $50. If it is
broken, I offer $35. I think I have cleaned out all the Iver Johnson
break tops in western Washington.
Either that, or the Iver Johnson collecting page got others to buy them all.
http://www2.arkansas.net/~sws1/ij-faq.htm
I kept reading that the were not safe to shoot. I decided to test some
to failure.
The load that did it, in a .1 gr powder work up was: 158 gr JHP .357"
bullet, 7.9 gr Blue Dot. PLEASE DON'T WRECK ANY MORE OF THESE GUNS, WE NOW KNOW THE STRESS LIMIT!
I wrecked couple of the 38 S&Ws with blue dot and a couple 32 s&ws with
Blue Dot.
The book load for 38 s&w is very wimpy, but the failure load kicks
painfully. I found that the rubber gripper grips for J frames can stretch to fit. This helps with the recoil of the 38 super loads it takes to wreck them.
The failure mode when working up .1 gr at a time is always the same: the latch gets loose. The latch is made of a T shaped piece of steel. The hole in the bottom of the T gets elongated.
Per my experience from other types of revolvers, if one jumps to a high load without work up, one can achieve cylinder fragmenting.
I talked the latch situation over with someone who has designed 3 guns that went into production. He explained to me that there are no pressure forces on the latch. The only forces on the latch are bullet friction and recoil on the barrel's upper half. Not being a successful gun designer brain myself, this took hours to comprehend. Now I realize, I should have shot soft lead bullets. They would have had less friction.
After a while learned how to repair the broken Iver Johnsons I bought. The most common problem is not being assembled correctly. The second most common problem is springs. I have not tried the Wolff Iver Johnson pak, but I have bought the V springs from Numerich
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/
So when I see one at the gun show, if it works, I offer $50. If it is
broken, I offer $35. I think I have cleaned out all the Iver Johnson
break tops in western Washington.
Either that, or the Iver Johnson collecting page got others to buy them all.
http://www2.arkansas.net/~sws1/ij-faq.htm
I kept reading that the were not safe to shoot. I decided to test some
to failure.
The load that did it, in a .1 gr powder work up was: 158 gr JHP .357"
bullet, 7.9 gr Blue Dot. PLEASE DON'T WRECK ANY MORE OF THESE GUNS, WE NOW KNOW THE STRESS LIMIT!
I wrecked couple of the 38 S&Ws with blue dot and a couple 32 s&ws with
Blue Dot.
The book load for 38 s&w is very wimpy, but the failure load kicks
painfully. I found that the rubber gripper grips for J frames can stretch to fit. This helps with the recoil of the 38 super loads it takes to wreck them.
The failure mode when working up .1 gr at a time is always the same: the latch gets loose. The latch is made of a T shaped piece of steel. The hole in the bottom of the T gets elongated.
Per my experience from other types of revolvers, if one jumps to a high load without work up, one can achieve cylinder fragmenting.
I talked the latch situation over with someone who has designed 3 guns that went into production. He explained to me that there are no pressure forces on the latch. The only forces on the latch are bullet friction and recoil on the barrel's upper half. Not being a successful gun designer brain myself, this took hours to comprehend. Now I realize, I should have shot soft lead bullets. They would have had less friction.
After a while learned how to repair the broken Iver Johnsons I bought. The most common problem is not being assembled correctly. The second most common problem is springs. I have not tried the Wolff Iver Johnson pak, but I have bought the V springs from Numerich
http://www.gunpartscorp.com/
Hi, Clark,
I wonder if there was a misunderstanding on the top latch. It is true that there is little tendency to break open the gun, but there is pressure on the latch as the recoil forces the case back against the top of the frame and the pressure tries to pull the barrel and frame apart. This eventually will cause peening of both the latch and the top of the frame, which is generally soft on those old guns. The old Colt percussion revolvers had no top straps but did not have so much of a problem since the recoil was of the whole cylinder and it was stopped by the stronger lower part of the frame.
The major strength concern with those old guns was the material. We usually call any ferrous metal gun frame "steel" but the old time guns were usually made of wrought iron or cast iron, and the strength just is not there. Even high quality guns were made that way. We often read that Colt at one point began making their SAA out of better quality steel for use with smokeless powder. That is not true. They began making it out of steel; prior to that, the frame had been wrought iron.
Jim
I wonder if there was a misunderstanding on the top latch. It is true that there is little tendency to break open the gun, but there is pressure on the latch as the recoil forces the case back against the top of the frame and the pressure tries to pull the barrel and frame apart. This eventually will cause peening of both the latch and the top of the frame, which is generally soft on those old guns. The old Colt percussion revolvers had no top straps but did not have so much of a problem since the recoil was of the whole cylinder and it was stopped by the stronger lower part of the frame.
The major strength concern with those old guns was the material. We usually call any ferrous metal gun frame "steel" but the old time guns were usually made of wrought iron or cast iron, and the strength just is not there. Even high quality guns were made that way. We often read that Colt at one point began making their SAA out of better quality steel for use with smokeless powder. That is not true. They began making it out of steel; prior to that, the frame had been wrought iron.
Jim
Jim, when I said pressure, I meant chamber pressure caused stress.
Obviously the latch has thousands of psi of tension stress in the steel.
What I meant, and this took my pea brain hours to get, is that if the barrel is in a vice, and the bullet is loose, one could load up the cartrigdes until the cylinder blows, and there will be no tension on the latch.
I had to lie down on a bed with my eyes closed and concentrate to see the forces on the latch.
What screwed me up was calculating the hoop stress in a barrel = [chamber pressure][Inside diameter]/2[wall thickness]
And the anular sress is always 1/2 half that. That is why barrels always split long wise and never around.
So I was calculating the anular stress, but the barrel is not sealed. The bullet gets all the pressure to it's acceleration , expept for the bullet friction.
The guy straightening me out has big framed pictures of G.I.s shooting his designs, all I have is broken $35 Iver Johnsons
Obviously the latch has thousands of psi of tension stress in the steel.
What I meant, and this took my pea brain hours to get, is that if the barrel is in a vice, and the bullet is loose, one could load up the cartrigdes until the cylinder blows, and there will be no tension on the latch.
I had to lie down on a bed with my eyes closed and concentrate to see the forces on the latch.
What screwed me up was calculating the hoop stress in a barrel = [chamber pressure][Inside diameter]/2[wall thickness]
And the anular sress is always 1/2 half that. That is why barrels always split long wise and never around.
So I was calculating the anular stress, but the barrel is not sealed. The bullet gets all the pressure to it's acceleration , expept for the bullet friction.
The guy straightening me out has big framed pictures of G.I.s shooting his designs, all I have is broken $35 Iver Johnsons
Last edited:
Mike Irwin
Staff
I don't think that's correct...
Even if the barrel is supported, when the cartridge fires the case head is acting as a piston, pushing back on the recoil shield (the pressure pushes in all directions equally). This alone would impart stress on the latch.
This was not easy for me.
If I pressurize a pipe, the forces causing it to burst are
S=[pressure][inside diameter]/2[wall thickness]
The gun designer calls this "hoop stress",like hoops on a wooden barrel.
I guess I forgot to mention the chamber pressure term before.
S is in pounds per square inch of tension to the metal. One can look up
the yield force for most metals, but often one has to also know the heat
treat.
Ok, in a pressurized pipe the annular stress is one half the hoop
stress, again this is why barrels blow up lengthwise and not around.
The problem I had was confusing the annular stress of a pressurized pipe
and that of a barrel that instead of a plug, has a bullet.
If the bullet is stuck, then the stress in the steel is the full annular
stress formula, but if it is moving, the stress on the barrel to break
it lengthwise is only the friction force on the bullet.
This took hours for me to get straight.
The guy that explained this to me has many patents is guns, hydraulic
transmissions, vertical ship propellers, rocket launchers, miniig
equipment, vehicle suspension, mobile bridges, and the list goes on.
I can only understand the suspensions as long as he is talking.
afterwards I forget.
He figured the latch out immediately. I had to lie down with my eyes
closed for an hour to get it.
The key part is that what psi of tension stress in the steel in the
barrel is not chamber pressure related, but friction related if the
bullet is moving.
Clark
If I pressurize a pipe, the forces causing it to burst are
S=[pressure][inside diameter]/2[wall thickness]
The gun designer calls this "hoop stress",like hoops on a wooden barrel.
I guess I forgot to mention the chamber pressure term before.
S is in pounds per square inch of tension to the metal. One can look up
the yield force for most metals, but often one has to also know the heat
treat.
Ok, in a pressurized pipe the annular stress is one half the hoop
stress, again this is why barrels blow up lengthwise and not around.
The problem I had was confusing the annular stress of a pressurized pipe
and that of a barrel that instead of a plug, has a bullet.
If the bullet is stuck, then the stress in the steel is the full annular
stress formula, but if it is moving, the stress on the barrel to break
it lengthwise is only the friction force on the bullet.
This took hours for me to get straight.
The guy that explained this to me has many patents is guns, hydraulic
transmissions, vertical ship propellers, rocket launchers, miniig
equipment, vehicle suspension, mobile bridges, and the list goes on.
I can only understand the suspensions as long as he is talking.
afterwards I forget.
He figured the latch out immediately. I had to lie down with my eyes
closed for an hour to get it.
The key part is that what psi of tension stress in the steel in the
barrel is not chamber pressure related, but friction related if the
bullet is moving.
Clark
Mike Irwin
Staff
Just sent you a reply, Clark.
Your friend is correct, but neglected to take into account, as I noted, the effects of the cartridge case acting as a piston and bearing on the recoil shield.
Since the cartridge case is trying to move out of the cylinder under the same pressure that is forcing the bullet down the barrel, but is blocked by the recoil shield, the cartridge case will push backwards on the recoil shield, which will impart a spreading pressure on the latch.
Your friend is correct, but neglected to take into account, as I noted, the effects of the cartridge case acting as a piston and bearing on the recoil shield.
Since the cartridge case is trying to move out of the cylinder under the same pressure that is forcing the bullet down the barrel, but is blocked by the recoil shield, the cartridge case will push backwards on the recoil shield, which will impart a spreading pressure on the latch.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Jim,
Hum... You know, thinking about this even more, you may be right...
I think it's time to consult my Dad, a civil engineer with a pretty good background in physics, too.
Then again, one of the guys in my office actually has his PhD in physics...
Hum... You know, thinking about this even more, you may be right...
I think it's time to consult my Dad, a civil engineer with a pretty good background in physics, too.
Then again, one of the guys in my office actually has his PhD in physics...