*Update* SWAT shooting of 11 year old in botched raid

Family should hire a good lawyer and take everything the cop owns plus a few million from the city.

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"Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true."
Homer Simpson... but attributed to Algore.
 
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" * Hawn, an 18-year SWAT team veteran, told
other officers at the scene right after the shooting that his finger was not on the trigger."
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Uhh.....say what? That durn gun just decided to shoot all by itself. Yeah, right.

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"Lead, follow or get the HELL out of the way."
 
DorGunR:

I noticed that too, just what the anti's and fence sitters need to hear to convince them that guns just go off all by themselves. This kind of stuff is just too much.
 
I can buy the fact that the Officer exclaimed that he did not have his finger on the trigger... Okay.
But that does not mean the he did not actually really have his finger on the trigger.
Massad Ayoob has written many times over his years as being the police comentator regarding firearms... that when your on the thick - and this happened within 30 seconds so I call that in the thick... little details like that get obscured - including pulling the trigger guard like it was the trigger, accidentals like this case, or not knowing how many rounds the officer fired...
The brain gets confused.
These things happen.

I dont think this is forgivable. This 18 year veteran should be removed from his position. Fired? Maybe not... Retired? Probably. Stay on the SWAT TEAM? NO.

Why was the officer pointing his weapon at an 11 year old boy? Is an 11 year old boy, laying face down on the floor A THREAT TO OFFICER SAFETY? NOT A CHANCE.

I dont like the way SWAT TEAMS are deployed these days. Its like a Hammer and every LEO situation not routine patrol duty is a Nail.
SWAT TEAMS should only be used in very limited situations... Very Limited.

I doubt that a SWAT team was even needed in this case.

The United States has a little saying that went out the window some time ago... Innocent Until Proven Guilty. And here we have Law Enforcement Agencys declaring WAR on SUSPECTS. This is too much.
The entire team should be put on operational and procedural review. Top to Bottom.

An 11 year old boy... Judas Priest.
While trying to arrest the 14 year old brother - WHO WAS NOT ON THE ARREST WARRANT!

pisses me off...
 
Family should hire a good lawyer and take everything the cop owns plus a few million from the city
EXCUSE ME PLEASE-WHO IS THE CITY? ITS TAXPAYERS. Why in the hell should the taxpayers have to pay off when anything like this happens and don't start talking about insurance.Who is paying the premiums and will the new increased ones.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
 
My letter to the editor.
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Re your article covering the police investigation of the eleven year old boy shot in the back by a SWAT cop.

1. One should NEVER point a weapon at anything or anybody they are not willing to destroy.

2. If rule one was followed, it wouldn't matter if his finger was or was not on the trigger. Most likely it was.

3. Twenty seconds between knock and entry demonstrates intent to do violence.

4. By the newspaper accounts, this is not the first time the shooting officer has demonstrated inability to safely handle firearms.

5. It is my opinion that the officer should be charged with murder, let a proper investigation and a jury decide his guilt or innocence.

6. The shooting officer's superiors and training officer should also be taken to task and cary some of the responsibility.

Respectfully submitted


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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
The part about the dark room and weapon mounted light is interesting. Clearly use of a WML, while a great idea during an entry, is inapropriate when the firearm is being used to illuminate a non-hostile. But I dont see an easy solution to the problem that does not involve serrious training, which, baring a freak and amazingly unlucky gun failure, is probably what went wrong here.

I've never had any real heartburn with this kind of raid on principal. But in practice, the officers have to be ABSOLUTELY AND COMPLETELY PROFESSIONAL. In short 99.999% perfect. This is asking alot but when society takes it on itself to initiate a conflict that can be expected to be deadly (to wit: the raid vest and trip to the armory for the big guns) the standard should be very high. Also, the potential benifit should be very high to ofset the downside risk. A single "conspiracy to distribute meth.." charge with a $20K bond is pretty weak.

I wonder how often this type of raid would be completed if raid procedure required a "presumption of innocence" and a weapons readiness policy that precluded drawn or sholdered weapons until a hostile action was witnessed?

Perhaps the tactical doctrine, procedures, and laws that SWAT teams work under stack the odds too much in favor of the team, therby negating a natural deterrent to frivolous raids.

No flames or critisms of LEOs intended from any of the above. Just my thoughts after following this and other similar stories. I realize that we only hear about the bad ones and never hear about the good ones. But just like death penalty cases - mistakes are unacceptable and I'm dubious about the idea that every little town in this country has the talent and the dollars to form a SWAT team that can do it right every time.
 
We can all take guesses on what would be done to one of us if we made such a mistake. I'd wager it would be more than a final finding that the shooting was 'accidental'.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"It was like Grand Central Station in the hallway. Everyone was bumping into each other while they were struggling with the 14-year-old and then the gunshot was heard," he said.[/quote] What do you want to bet that this was a sympathetic muscle response? Hawn did have his finger on the trigger and the safety off, and he grabbed something with his other hand. All of us know the odds of this shotgun just 'going off' are slim and none.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"I'm sure that one question on everybody's mind is how did the gun go off?" Sale said. "At this point in time, every indication we have is this was a tragic and accidental discharge, however, we don't know what caused it. We may never know exactly what caused the weapon to discharge."[/quote] I'm sure they never will know, if they refuse to believe he pulled the trigger. I don't, for one moment, believe this LEO meant to kill this boy. But, I do believe the War on Some Drugs is bound to kill many innocent people (including LEO's), it is a needless and pointless loss of life, and this accident was caused by this dismal policy. And, I'd wager my net worth that this LEO did have his finger on the trigger, and did inadvertetly pull that trigger.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"I'm 100 percent behind the police and the police chief," Alvarez said. "The point is that we (the community) have to get rid of these drugs. Drugs is why the police were there. It was a tragic accident."

Alvarez said he was assured that a drug raid by police at a home in a wealthy neighborhood would be handled the same way as anywhere else in Modesto.[/quote] Well, it's nice to know this idiot will be perfectly content, as long as the same kind of bloodshed can occur in wealthy homes as well. And, if we lose a kid, a dad, a mom here and there ... hey! It's the War on Some Drugs, man! It's worth it.

Will these people ever, ever wake up?

Regards from AZ

[This message has been edited by Jeff Thomas (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
A HK MP5 (with original HK parts) does not go off unless one pulls the
trigger. Proven beyond any doubt. At police academy here, they
demonstrate this in a very scary manner. Instructur gets one, puts it
on semi-auto, chambers a round and then, with all available force,
hurls it downrange.

I think a murder 1st degree charge is too much, but manslaughter is
probably the thing the SWAT guy should be charged with. It would
probably be very difficult to prove wether he had lowly motives for
shooting the guy, or he was just negligent.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The police investigation's final finding was that the shooting by officer David Hawn was accidental. [/quote]

And it will stay that way until a mass riot is conducted to force a retraction, and action against such lame a$$ crap by the original offender, then furthered by this investigation.

This is the kind of stuff that causes the disrespect and contempt of LEO, by the common peon like me.

I suppose he will be allowed to do this yet a third time before action is then taken against his BS.

This guy deserves to be behind bars with some people he's helped place there.

We'll see if Justice is ever allowed to deal with him.

I seriously doubt it, and this is again, another reason this country is in such fu()$ed up condition!!

Sorry if this offends anyone, but this one reason why I teach my little one to trust NOBODY but us(wife and I), period!!


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Time Heals All Wounds.

Time Wounds All Heels.

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited September 19, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Donny (edited September 19, 2000).]
 
Sounds like the only one deeply moved is the officer that discharged his weapon, everyone else is C.Y.A.

When I was in Fallon, Nevada a U.S. Navy Base
Policeman shot a 7-year old by accident, it was deemed an accidental death and the officer was tryed and convicted of invoultary manslughter, and got 7 years.

This officer should suffer the same punishment, just like any other citizen would
if tried and convicted of the same thing.

If the Police Department is going to send men in to storm a house weather there are bad guys in there or not, they better be well trained and competent enough to carry it out.
 
I agree that one of the main problems here is the overuse of SWAT. When SWAT teams first came about, they were for use in situations for which normal patrolmen would be unprepared, such as a sniper or a hostage situation.
Nowadays, they are used to SERVE WARRANTS. Warrants used to be served by two or three patrolmen or detectives, maybe one or two of them with shotguns and SWAT teams were for more dire situations.
Now, warrants are served by SWAT teams and dire situations, as was seen at Columbine, are handled by NOBODY. Over and over, it seems, hostage situations, snipers, etc are seen as too dangerous to use the SWAT team!
What are we going to do then? Call out Delta Force?
 
90% of the muscles in the hand serve to contract the fingers and the other 10% serve to open the hand. When startled, the normal response would be to jump back. Muscles may contract, including the fingers of the hand. That's why you don't even want to rest the finger on the trigger guard but rather along the slide. It's safer.

That said, with respects to civil liability, I doubt if this will go to trial. An out of court settlement would seem to be in the best interests of all parties.
 
I'm really confused.

My guns only fire after safety is off and the trigger is pulled. Do police weapons work differently? I can disengage the oversized safety on my 870 and pull the trigger in the same time it takes to just pull the trigger. I don't understand the need to have the safety off.
 
Since this event is local for me, it has been leadoff story on every newscast, especially since the funeral was today.

Maybe someone here can enlighten me on a few things...or maybe no one knows the answers. Supposedly the father had been under investigation for 2 years. This would lead the public to believe that there is big deal drug stuff going on in this home or with this man. Why then was he released on his own recognisance? Was he allowed to go free because his son was killed by an LEO, or is this S.O.P.? And if it is S.O.P., why the heck did they need a SWAT team if they were just going to let the guy go? Sounds like a big case of (pardon the choice of word) overkill to me.
 
Otter: So they say they were following the guy for 2+ years? Why did they need to enter the place when everyone was home then? Guess it would be too easy to arrest the guy away from his family and search the place, with a warrent, when no one was home? Course that would take more time and effort. And not be near as exciting. Just safer for all involved.
 
I think they do it ( the SWAT raid ) for intimidation purposes toward the general population, I also suspect that the increase in accidental shootings is directly attributable to the lack of prosecutions for such. The JBT's don't give a crap one way or another soi they don't even try, although in this case the 14 year old was wrestling and the cop shot his brother, sounds like a statement to me. I think there is at least a 50% chance he did it on purpose, I mean, he knows he won't pay for it already, what's stopping him ? I also think the "accidents" and lack of prosecution is a public intimidation project too.
 
You bet it "was an accidental discharge." Hmmm. I ought to go to the courthouse and see if the transcript of the murder trials of the two police officers who shot my next door neighbor six times in the back of the head are still available. They tried all types of defense: they thought the crippled man's cane was a rifle, yada, yada. Didn't work. They were both found guilty (of premeditated murder while on duty) but as someone mentioned they were only charged with murder after the riot. Some things never change

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Byron Quick
 
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