Henry Bowman
Moderator
How many guns per year/month may a private unlicenced individual sell before becoming labeled by F-troop as an unlicenced dealer? Many thanks, henry
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Unlicenced Firearms Sales ??
- Thread starter Henry Bowman
- Start date
i have been surfing this data set today: http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html
Principal objective of livelihood and profit. The intent underlying
the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining
livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents such as
improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That
proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the
regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this part, the term ``terrorism''
means activity, directed against United States persons, which--
(a) Is committed by an individual who is not a national or permanent
resident alien of the United States;
(b) Involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life which
would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of
the United States; and
(c) Is intended--
(1) To intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(2) To influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
coercion; or
(3) To affect the conduct of a government by assassination or
kidnapping.
Principal objective of livelihood and profit. The intent underlying
the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining
livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents such as
improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That
proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the
regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal
purposes or terrorism. For purposes of this part, the term ``terrorism''
means activity, directed against United States persons, which--
(a) Is committed by an individual who is not a national or permanent
resident alien of the United States;
(b) Involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life which
would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of
the United States; and
(c) Is intended--
(1) To intimidate or coerce a civilian population;
(2) To influence the policy of a government by intimidation or
coercion; or
(3) To affect the conduct of a government by assassination or
kidnapping.
My take on this statement:
Principal objective of livelihood and profit. The intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism.
Why would one sell a firearm for less than one purchased it for?
If I bought a Model 70 (pre 64) 15 years ago and then sold it today for a $400.00 profit, reading the above BATF statement would not apply as "Principal objective of livelihood and profit.
If I bought my next door neighbors Model 77, 7mm Ruger for $100.00, because he was getting a divorce and then sold it two weeks later for $400.00, the statement still would not apply because of the linkage of "livelihood and profit.
However, if I had no other source of income, and I continually ran a "gun dealer type business" out of my home, making a profit on all aspects of buying and selling, this might be construed as selling for "livelihood and profit".
Bottom line, just because you are aware when a firearm is for sale that it is priced "low", and you then make a profit on it's eventual sale, certainly can't fall under the "for livelihood and profit" category.
Tell me where I'm wrong?
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
[This message has been edited by Elker_43 (edited June 29, 2000).]
Principal objective of livelihood and profit. The intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection: Provided, That proof of profit shall not be required as to a person who engages in the regular and repetitive purchase and disposition of firearms for criminal purposes or terrorism.
Why would one sell a firearm for less than one purchased it for?
If I bought a Model 70 (pre 64) 15 years ago and then sold it today for a $400.00 profit, reading the above BATF statement would not apply as "Principal objective of livelihood and profit.
If I bought my next door neighbors Model 77, 7mm Ruger for $100.00, because he was getting a divorce and then sold it two weeks later for $400.00, the statement still would not apply because of the linkage of "livelihood and profit.
However, if I had no other source of income, and I continually ran a "gun dealer type business" out of my home, making a profit on all aspects of buying and selling, this might be construed as selling for "livelihood and profit".
Bottom line, just because you are aware when a firearm is for sale that it is priced "low", and you then make a profit on it's eventual sale, certainly can't fall under the "for livelihood and profit" category.
Tell me where I'm wrong?
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
[This message has been edited by Elker_43 (edited June 29, 2000).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elker_43:
Tell me where I'm wrong?
[/quote]
First rule of BATF Regulatory Interpretation:
It means whatever we say it means. Period. Until we decide it means something else.
------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
Tell me where I'm wrong?
[/quote]
First rule of BATF Regulatory Interpretation:
It means whatever we say it means. Period. Until we decide it means something else.
------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
Very True!
However, their Regulatory Interpretation (no matter how costly it is to me) still does not mean that I am wrong!
Although your point is well taken, I still intend to sell for a profit when I choose to sell one of my firearms out of my "collection" whether I've owned it for 25 years or 25 minutes. Point being the continuation of the BATF Regulatory Statement: ....as opposed to other intents such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection."
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
However, their Regulatory Interpretation (no matter how costly it is to me) still does not mean that I am wrong!
Although your point is well taken, I still intend to sell for a profit when I choose to sell one of my firearms out of my "collection" whether I've owned it for 25 years or 25 minutes. Point being the continuation of the BATF Regulatory Statement: ....as opposed to other intents such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection."
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
Of course you owe taxes!
You made a profit right!
And that is the American way.
We, being good Americans know our duty, and are obligated to claim it on our tax form for the year of sale, Right?
However, you are now dealing with the IRS, not the BATF.
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
You made a profit right!
And that is the American way.
We, being good Americans know our duty, and are obligated to claim it on our tax form for the year of sale, Right?
However, you are now dealing with the IRS, not the BATF.
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
Henry Bowman
Moderator
I spoke to my local ATF office and was informed that I may set up at a local gunshow once a year..or else! henry
Or else what....
If you wish to sell your "personal collection" one gun a show, every month, for the next 5 years, I believe that you can....NO MATTER WHAT!!!
Tell the ATF to pound sand if they don't like it!
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
If you wish to sell your "personal collection" one gun a show, every month, for the next 5 years, I believe that you can....NO MATTER WHAT!!!
Tell the ATF to pound sand if they don't like it!
------------------
To own firearms is to affirm that freedom and liberty are not gifts from the state.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elker_43:
Very True!
However, their Regulatory Interpretation (no matter how costly it is to me) still does not mean that I am wrong!
[/quote]
Correct. However, we're mixing up our terminology here (and I think I'm probably the most guilty). You are right, but BATF gets to decide what is lawful. (And that's the whole problem, right there!)
------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed
Very True!
However, their Regulatory Interpretation (no matter how costly it is to me) still does not mean that I am wrong!
[/quote]
Correct. However, we're mixing up our terminology here (and I think I'm probably the most guilty). You are right, but BATF gets to decide what is lawful. (And that's the whole problem, right there!)
------------------
"...and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."
Luke 22:36
"An armed society is a polite society."
Robert Heinlein
"Power corrupts. Absolute power - is kinda cool!"
Fred Reed