Unknown 20mm Cannon shell

F

FlexiBull

Inactive
Hi folks

I'm new here, so this is an introduction aswell as a question.

I have an unknown cannon shell and I was wondering if any one might recognise the type, there is not much to go one, only two small "L" "L" under the fuse.

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Also I need to know the state of the fuse, it looks solid metal, is it?


Thanks in advance

FlexiBull
 
The thickened forward part of the shell is a "bore-rider" type, and the overall length is fairly long , so my first impression is that it would likely be European (probably an Oerlikon or licenced copy). Both sides used these during WW2, with the Germans using them in 20mm cannon on the ME-109 and FW-190, the Japanese using them in some of their Zeros and other designs, and the British using a longer version in some of their Spitfires. There are a couple of cartridge collectors at http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/forumintro.htm who specialize in these sorts of things who can probably give you a definitive answer.
 
Any stamped markings on or slightly above the copper rotating band? Look very closely. Sometimes if you wet the area, worn stampings will be slightly more visible.
 
No I can't see any markings. There is extensive corrosion of the shell which makes it difficult. The inside of the shell looks like it has never been filled. There is a residue of grease inside.

The fuse seems solid is it likely to contain any explosive material, the word fuse worries me a bit :eek:
 
I have a 20MM round my Father brought back from "The War".
http://www.nashwauk.net/20MM.html

Markings on the projectile,

W P
20 MM.MK3.MOD 2
3.42

Markings on the case (head stamp),

NOEN 145 1942 20MM-MK.2

The fuse and primer (berdan) have been removed.

I have never researched this Cartridge. I just have an idea it was a round they fired when guarding the merchant ship he was assigned to.
 
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Very cool!

Ok, my turn:
wjxphs.jpg

2h4di0w.jpg

2eupzs5.jpg


on 20mm HE shell: MK3 9 J 352

base of casing: E.K. 1944 20MM MK4


I polished the 20mm when i was a kid using Brasso :rolleyes:

Got the 20mm shell from my Grandfather who received it as a gift from my Great-Uncle who served in North Africa, Italy and Normandy with the "Big Red One" 1st Division, 16th Infantry.
Hoorah!
 
The shell marked NOEN stands for Naval Ordnance Engineering Laboratory, which was located at the Dahlgren Weapons Center in Maryland.

Both Gbro's and Rampant Colt's shells are for the American version of the Oerlikon 20mm gun, which was used extensively by the Navy as last-ditch defense against aircraft and small boats.


Flexibull, I believe that your shell is also a shell for the American version of the Oerlikon gun.

What is a bit confusing, though, is that while it appears never to have been fired as the driving band is not engraved, the shell appears to have been either under ground or under water where it rusted and pitted.

My guess is that it may have been discarded and pulled out of a trash heap on a military base.

I'm also pretty certain that your projectile was never designed to be loaded; it is, in essence, a dummy used for training purposes.
 
Thanks Mike,

I googled this for an hour (dial up):o and didn't find much technical info on the cartridge. I am interested in the driving ring, and there was some mention of electric firing. This case has the berdan design, although there appears to be a band inside the primer pocket. It to me looks like the primer was cut out. ???
Then there was mention on another link about these cartridges, or similar ones needing to be greased???
 
Can you take a clear picture of the primer pocket?

E.K. is Eastman Kodak company, which made 20mm Oerlikon cases during the war. I believe that is all that they made, 20mm brass cases; no projectiles or anything like that.

I'll have to do a little digging around, but I THINK that the American Oerlikon shells could be used in either electrically or impact fired weapons.
 
A while back, I posted on the spent 20mm cases I came across. Funny that this thread pops up now, because just last week I finished making my dummy projectiles to mount in my spent cases. Mine seem to be 20mmX110s manufactured by Eastman Kodak. Anyway, I made the dummies out of ABS plastic and will paint them to (hopefully) look kinda real. Maybe Gbro can explain how the markings on his projectile are laid out?

Here's my thread:

grymster's 20mm thread
 
I actually painted one of my dummies, just to fool around. I'd like the other three to look as original as I can get them.

I used the red for the rotating band, but need to find a copper color paint. That's a machined blank next to it.

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My camera and I are not fully in harmony when it comes to macro pictures. It my be old enough to not be capable of good ones.
This picture of gymsters case kind of answers my primer question.
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3016165&postcount=13
But this is the best I could do,
Gmyster the markings are,
I will put asterisk in to space the markings as they appear. The W P is 1 7/8 inches from shell tip,
*****W P
20 MM.MK3.MOD 2
*****3.42
the letters are .160 in height
the periods belong, discard the asterisk's.
 

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Gymster,
That is correct I put the asterisks in to keep alignment.
I tried another dozen closeups with my camera and gave up.
Ramp, that sure is a nice clear picture. Now I know what to get the Mrs. for Christmas, It could come early;);)
 
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Gbro,

The insert ring in your case appears to be brass with a split at the bottom.

If it is metal, it's not an electrically primed case. Those cases have an insulator sleeve of rubber, bakelite plastic, or some other non conducting compound in the primer pocket.

I don't know why the primer pocket might have been sleeved
 
It's my uneducated guess that Gbro's 20mm is electric-primed and is merely missing the gasket, or insulator sleeve that Mike Irwin mentioned above. Note how much larger the primer pocket on his case is compared to mine. My 1944 20mm appears to be a standard impact-primed casing.

Good article on AN/M3 and M24 20mm deck gun HERE. And even more information HERE

The AN/M3 gun used lubricated, percussion-primed ammunition. The M24 aircraft gun was a further modification that fired electric-primed ammunition, which the Air Force considered to be more reliable than percussion ammunition. All of these guns operated with an open breech and had a gas-assisted, blowback operation, with the recoil motion being used to feed the next round of ammunition.
Click to expand...
 
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I have pic's now!

My niece came by for a fish fry and has a $1200 Canon that worked a might better.
One shot from each end:)
I would guess the nick in the insert was from decapping the spent primer?
In the chart you linked us to the propellant is listed as "NC tube", is that Cordite?
On the projectile the letters WP, I don't see anything in the link about that. Why am I thinking
White Phosphorous? (willy Pete)
 

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