Hello folks. I've been working up a load in the 45acp using 5.4 gns of universal with a 230gn plated round nose. The data comes from Hornady and is the middle loading for their lead round nose bullet. I'm also using their COAL of 1.245 which feeds and functions fine in my pistol. I'm experiencing some unburnt powder. My question is to eliminate that should I go ahead and continue working up considering alot of folks have a little trouble with this powder loaded light. The maximum per Hornady is 5.7 gns. My charge of 5.4 is very soft shooting and drops the brass at my feet almost every time. (kind of what I'm looking for) they seem to cycle the action with out issue. I'm using no taper crimp with a very minute amount of flair. Would a very slight taper crimp help? Thanks folks.
Universal clays and light loads.
- Thread starter mattL46
- Start date
chris in va
New member
Honestly, I haven't had much luck with Universal in my 45. Like you said it spews flakes everywhere and in my CZ it tends to not push the slide back hard enough for ejection. It didn't matter what charge I gave it either.
I switched to Bullseye with much better results.
I switched to Bullseye with much better results.
I will second that -- I spent more time than I should have trying to make Universal in .45 more likable before I decided it was futile. It burns a bit on the slow side to work for light loads in .45.
I absolutely -LOVE- Universal for my 9mm/124's and it also does great in other high pressure loads but I'm over & done with trying to make ot work in .45. Now, if I was on a deserted island?! Better than seagull poop as a propellant, but I have FAR too many phenomenal powders to spend another moment trying to make it work somewhere that it's not well suited to be. And yes... piles of charred amd unburnt flakes.
I absolutely -LOVE- Universal for my 9mm/124's and it also does great in other high pressure loads but I'm over & done with trying to make ot work in .45. Now, if I was on a deserted island?! Better than seagull poop as a propellant, but I have FAR too many phenomenal powders to spend another moment trying to make it work somewhere that it's not well suited to be. And yes... piles of charred amd unburnt flakes.
Well I worked up to the maximum per Hornady data. It was a noticeably better burn, but still a few flakes of un burned powder. I have other powders that should burn better with such a light load I just reserve them for other cartridges and was really wanting to get rid of this universal. I have atleast 2lbs of it. I do really enjoy how it just drops the cases at my feet and would be an excellent light target/practice load. Just don't know if I can tolerate the mess. Not to mention it's kinda wasteful. I don't know...
Man oh man, if you lived near me I would swap you something for it.
In your shoes -- I would close it up and place it somewhere dry. It'll be perfectly good 10 or more years from now. And as I said -- I totally love it in 9mm, and I can't imagine you don't load 9mm... or perhaps just not YET.
In your shoes -- I would close it up and place it somewhere dry. It'll be perfectly good 10 or more years from now. And as I said -- I totally love it in 9mm, and I can't imagine you don't load 9mm... or perhaps just not YET.
Don't get me wrong sevens I love the powder. I'm a big fan of the clays line. If I can't get it used in 45 I'll repurpose it for sure. I'm strongly considering going over Hornady listed maximum for the lead data I'm using. At maximum I see no pressure signs and it's still quite soft shooting. My only fear is that for the jacketed data for the same bullet weight and profile universal is not a listed powder. The maximum charge for lead did clean it up some. What do you think?? edit..i do not own a 9mm and don't plan to. Just not a huge fan. Respect the cartridge just not my cup of tea ha.
I can't comment on how it might work when you start to go outside published loads. I would suggest searching multiple sources for published data that might reinforce you idea or wish to load hotter.
Personally...
I often find myself just a wee bit outside the norm in these forums when it comes to being ultra-conservative with powders and charge weights. I'm of the school of thought that published maximums are a GUIDE and not gospel and not law. If you are a skilled handloader and you are using modern guns in good condition and you KNOW load development and how to approach it... then you can find your load. And sometimes, that load may be beyond a published max.
Personally...
I often find myself just a wee bit outside the norm in these forums when it comes to being ultra-conservative with powders and charge weights. I'm of the school of thought that published maximums are a GUIDE and not gospel and not law. If you are a skilled handloader and you are using modern guns in good condition and you KNOW load development and how to approach it... then you can find your load. And sometimes, that load may be beyond a published max.
Totally understand sevens. Being that this data is used for a plated bullet and plated bullet manufacturers suggest mid range lead to mid range jacketed data for them I think I'm OK. Like mentioned before my maximum load for lead was still soft kicking for my plated bullet with zero pressure signs. I think I'll possibly try. It did clean up the higher I went. Which is what most have experienced. Im not a newbie but I'm certainly no seasoned pro with 30 years under my belt. I think if I'm very careful I can work it up in 10th of a gn increments and just see how it goes.
That sounds good. The only part I would comment on is to (somewhat) disregard what plated bullet manufacturers "suggest" when it comes to loading like lead. I wish they would wise up in that regard.
I have loaded somewhere in the area of 100,000 plated handgun bullets. Most of them have been Berry's and Xtreme. Especially in semi-auto pistols like .45 ACP, I treat them like jacketed bullets. No, they are not true jacketed bullets, but they offer resistance in the bore -FAR- more like a jacketed bullet and nothing whatsoever like a lead bullet.
I do heed plated bullet manufacturer's suggestions on top speed and I am very cognizant of NOT corrupting the very thin plating with extreme gorrila crimps, but when I research published data for plated bullets -- I read JACKETED bullet data.
I have a decent volume of experience with plated handgun bullets across countless firearms... but what I cling to here is the amount of very genuine success that I have had with them.
I have loaded somewhere in the area of 100,000 plated handgun bullets. Most of them have been Berry's and Xtreme. Especially in semi-auto pistols like .45 ACP, I treat them like jacketed bullets. No, they are not true jacketed bullets, but they offer resistance in the bore -FAR- more like a jacketed bullet and nothing whatsoever like a lead bullet.
I do heed plated bullet manufacturer's suggestions on top speed and I am very cognizant of NOT corrupting the very thin plating with extreme gorrila crimps, but when I research published data for plated bullets -- I read JACKETED bullet data.
I have a decent volume of experience with plated handgun bullets across countless firearms... but what I cling to here is the amount of very genuine success that I have had with them.
Makes great sense sevens and I must agree. Wondered why I chose lead in the first place. Looking back at my records (I keep very good records) I've been through this once before. I even have a note on my first go round that says "use jacketed data?" thought the first run was with a different powder. Guess that's why you keep notes. Although im determined to try and get a clean burn with a somewhat light charge of universal. I'll keep tinkering. I load a ton of the extreme bullets in 38special with great success using unique. Possibly my favorite and most accurate 38 special load.
Tim, good point and I think I have a pretty good idea. With what I'm seeing I feel like I'm pretty safe to bump it up very little. My goal is not for velocity. Solely to heat up the load to achieve a cleaner more efficient and full burn. The data im using is lead, so I feel as if it's conservative to begin with.
Funny, but I've shot thousands of rounds of 4.8 grains of Universal behind a 200 grain LSWC's, and found it cleaner than Bullseye. It's faster than Unique. No hint of trouble running a full size 1911. You guys are worrying me that they changed it somehow. I hope not, as I just got another 4 lb container.
In a very recent thread someone said some little bit about Hodgdon no longer getting Universal from ADI in Australia and I asked for some kind of link or citation but nobody said a peep. I recently bought two four pounders and both are still marked as a product of Australia.
As to my position on Universal in .45 ACP -- I formed that opinion a year or more ago and on powder that I have had for 3-4 years minimum so please understand that my position would have nothing whatsoever to do with a new formulation of Universal. I just did not care for all the unburnt flakes. And though it was evident in every pistol I shot them in, and also on the shooting bench at the indoor range -- I'll tell you where I really noticed it... I had a short fling with a S&W 625 (N-frame .45 ACP moon-clip revolver) and upon bringing my fired brass home in a zip-loc freezer bag, the amount of powder in the bottom of the bag was... ummm, inspiring, and not in a good way. I dumped that pile of charred powder on the sidewalk and lit it to see if this was still combustible propellant or some manner of charred remains and it light up just like any other smokeless I have ever ignited.
As to my position on Universal in .45 ACP -- I formed that opinion a year or more ago and on powder that I have had for 3-4 years minimum so please understand that my position would have nothing whatsoever to do with a new formulation of Universal. I just did not care for all the unburnt flakes. And though it was evident in every pistol I shot them in, and also on the shooting bench at the indoor range -- I'll tell you where I really noticed it... I had a short fling with a S&W 625 (N-frame .45 ACP moon-clip revolver) and upon bringing my fired brass home in a zip-loc freezer bag, the amount of powder in the bottom of the bag was... ummm, inspiring, and not in a good way. I dumped that pile of charred powder on the sidewalk and lit it to see if this was still combustible propellant or some manner of charred remains and it light up just like any other smokeless I have ever ignited.
I bought 2 lbs probably two years ago nick and am just getting around to seriously trying to use it. I'm not sure how old the actual lot is. But I sure am having a little trouble. I'm using Winchester primers. I wonder if I should reduce and start over with a different primer?
Interesting to hear from both of you guys on that. I always griped about flakes with Unique and 2400, but Universal has thus far escaped my complaints.
ADI had a drier fire a couple of years back that shut down their production of the whole line of powders sold here as the "Clays" series. They got it back up, but announced they were discontinuing the AS30N, AS50N, and AP70N that are Clays, International, and Universal, respectively, sometime this year. It made me wonder if that was what was in the drier when it went up. They were, however, going to have a new line of powders in its place. But the old numbers are still listed as of now, and maybe they were discontinuing the process but kept the names for the replacement process. I have no idea.
My old lot of Universal was the last of a large purchase that probably lasted nearly fifteen years. So if there's been a process change, I'll find out with the new lot. I've always had a few unburned flakes with it, but nothing as monumental as I'm hearing described. My lot could have been above average burn rate, too, and that affects peak pressure and temperature which affects how complete the burn is. In general, flakes are a low pressure sign, but that has to be defined as low for the powder, not necessarily low for the particular cartridge you are using.
Well, I've still got a few dregs of the old powder and the new container, which is only 4 lbs and not 16 lbs like the last batch. I'll just have to see how it is currently behaving. Maybe I'll try it in my S&W 25-2. as well, just to see if I have the same issue.
ADI had a drier fire a couple of years back that shut down their production of the whole line of powders sold here as the "Clays" series. They got it back up, but announced they were discontinuing the AS30N, AS50N, and AP70N that are Clays, International, and Universal, respectively, sometime this year. It made me wonder if that was what was in the drier when it went up. They were, however, going to have a new line of powders in its place. But the old numbers are still listed as of now, and maybe they were discontinuing the process but kept the names for the replacement process. I have no idea.
My old lot of Universal was the last of a large purchase that probably lasted nearly fifteen years. So if there's been a process change, I'll find out with the new lot. I've always had a few unburned flakes with it, but nothing as monumental as I'm hearing described. My lot could have been above average burn rate, too, and that affects peak pressure and temperature which affects how complete the burn is. In general, flakes are a low pressure sign, but that has to be defined as low for the powder, not necessarily low for the particular cartridge you are using.
Well, I've still got a few dregs of the old powder and the new container, which is only 4 lbs and not 16 lbs like the last batch. I'll just have to see how it is currently behaving. Maybe I'll try it in my S&W 25-2. as well, just to see if I have the same issue.
Just for informational purposes the first load tested of 5.4 gns left about 10-12 flakes. When I went to maximum that number fell to about half that amount. With no pressure signs at all and still a very mild load I'm considering trying over maximum for the LEAD 230gn Rn data I'm using. Universal is not listed for the same jacketed bullet per Hornady 8th manual. I'll get to it as soon as possible and report back.
I took a M1911 to the range and shot it with the one pound of Universal that I bought at a gun show. I did not want Universal, I wanted "Clays" and the stupid name "Universal Clays" on the label confused me. Probably confused more people than me. There is a "Clay Clays" and a "Universal Clays". I wanted to try something fast, which I heard "Clay Clays" was, and instead I picked up a powder that I could care little for "Universal Clays".
So, having a powder I did not want, my 2011 lot of Universal Clays sat on the shelf for four years till I tried in Dec 2015. I think it is a decent powder but nothing spectacular. My groups with W231 were noticeably tighter at the same velocity. Since I always clean my pistols before I get washed, scrubbed in the tub, the lazy man's complaint of "cleanliness" is not a concern and I don't remember Universal Clays being better or worse than any other powder in this regards. I don't remember the powder residue being any less or more and frankly, I don't care. What I am concerned about is performance in the gun and performance on the target.
I also tried the stuff in my 44 Special. Shot OK, but nothing so fantastic to cause the Archangel Gabriel to blow his trumpet. I plan to stick with Bullseye in the 45 ACP and Unique in the 44 Special.
So, having a powder I did not want, my 2011 lot of Universal Clays sat on the shelf for four years till I tried in Dec 2015. I think it is a decent powder but nothing spectacular. My groups with W231 were noticeably tighter at the same velocity. Since I always clean my pistols before I get washed, scrubbed in the tub, the lazy man's complaint of "cleanliness" is not a concern and I don't remember Universal Clays being better or worse than any other powder in this regards. I don't remember the powder residue being any less or more and frankly, I don't care. What I am concerned about is performance in the gun and performance on the target.
Code:
[SIZE="3"][B]Springfield Armory NM Kart Barrel[/B]
230 LRN Valiant 5.5 grs W231 Mixed cases, Brass WLP OAL 1.245"
14-Dec-15 T = 65 ° F
Ave Vel =816
Std Dev =17.6
ES =90.41
High = 856.9
Low=766.5
N=30
better, tighter groups than Universal loads. Ejection is straight up!
230 LRN Valiant 5.0 grs Univeral lot 42711 (4-27-2011) Mixed cases, Brass WLP
OAL 1.250", taper crimp 0.469"
14-Dec-15 T = 65 ° F
Ave Vel =742.4
Std Dev =37.46
ES =183.8
High = 821.7
Low=637.9
N=30
reasonable accuracy, soft shooting, no leading, 4 clicks up from ball. Ejection straight up
230 LRN Valiant 5.4 grs Univeral lot 42711 (4-27-2011) Mixed cases, Brass WLP
OAL 1.250", taper crimp 0.469"
14-Dec-15 T = 65 ° F
Ave Vel =781.6
Std Dev =25.78
ES =87.48
High = 818.2
Low=730.7
N=18
Accuracy OK, harder recoil , ejection straight up.[/SIZE]I also tried the stuff in my 44 Special. Shot OK, but nothing so fantastic to cause the Archangel Gabriel to blow his trumpet. I plan to stick with Bullseye in the 45 ACP and Unique in the 44 Special.
Code:
[SIZE="3"][B]4" M624 44 Special[/B]
240 LSWC 10.0 grs AA#5 thrown Lot DM Midway cases WLP
T = 58 ° F 30-Dec-15
Ave Vel =998
Std Dev =25
ES = 73
High = 1028
Low= 956
N = 8
240 LSWC 6.5 grs Universal thrown, lot 4-27-11 mixed Brass WLP
T = 58 ° F 30-Dec-15
Ave Vel =849
Std Dev =26
ES = 107
High = 893
Low= 786
N = 18
240 LSWC 7.5 grs Universal thrown, lot 4-27-11 mixed Brass WLP
T = 58 ° F 30-Dec-15
Ave Vel =976
Std Dev =29.18
ES = 121.2
High = 1012
Low= 891.5
N = 21[/SIZE]