Should I prefer to use one over the other? I know 15.0 grains of Unique will give me the 1400 fps I am looking for with either a 457191 292 gr. cast or a RCBS 45-405 FNGC cast bullet. I have no idea how much Blue dot would do the same. Will either powder require a filler? Don't want to fool with fillers at all.
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Unique and Blue Dot in the 45-70
- Thread starter rickt300
- Start date
This was the only Bluedot recipe I could find in my docs.
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Unique, which is often used in pistol target loads, is significantly faster than Blue Dot, which is often used in magnum revolver loads. The peak pressure from 15 grains of Unique produces is almost 2.4 times higher than the same amount of Blue Dot does in QuickLOAD. The velocity difference is much smaller than that because of the similar energy content and different burning characteristics. I would expect 15 grains of BD to be much dirtier burning for that reason. Too little pressure for it to burn cleanly.
CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
I’ve used both powders in my .45-70s with good success without fillers. NOTE: these loads were safe in my rifle and showed no signs of high pressure, but I have no idea if they are safe in yours. Start 2 grains low and work up carefully.
In my 16.5” Contender carbine under the Sierra 300 HP:
12.0 grains Unique = 1040 fps, ES = 63 fps
19.0 grains BlueDot = 1361 fps, ES = 24 fps
Under the Speer 400 FN:
17.0 BlueDot = 1052 fps, ES = 41 fps
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I’ve used both powders in my .45-70s with good success without fillers. NOTE: these loads were safe in my rifle and showed no signs of high pressure, but I have no idea if they are safe in yours. Start 2 grains low and work up carefully.
In my 16.5” Contender carbine under the Sierra 300 HP:
12.0 grains Unique = 1040 fps, ES = 63 fps
19.0 grains BlueDot = 1361 fps, ES = 24 fps
Under the Speer 400 FN:
17.0 BlueDot = 1052 fps, ES = 41 fps
.
When I had a 45-70, the recommended powder was 4198. 35gr gave me 1500fps with 405 LFN. The only handgun powder listed in loaddata.com was 2400 in an 1873 Trapdoor. I use Unique in my 45 Colt handloads. A lot of people post on the internet using Unique for this round, but I wouldn't. If it was safe, the data would be in the manuals.
If it was safe, the data would be in the manuals.
Not necessarily.
There are, literally huge amouts of combinations that make safe loads, but space (and time and MONEY) for the manual are limited.
You almost never see light loads for heavy cartridges in the manuals, because those aren't what most people are looking for.
I've got some old loading manuals (Lyman, from the 50s) that have special "gallery loads" sections for some rifle cartridges. I don't see those in manuals from the more recent decades very often.
Never considered using Blue Dot in the .45-70, but I have used Unique. For "gallery loads" not full blackpowder power level loads, though it is possible.
I use 10gr under a 400gr cast slug, don't know, and don't care how fast its going. though I am certain it is subsonic. Its not a hunting load, just a light plinker for fun use.
Many will tell you that kind of load (and your load of 15gr) should use a filler of some kind. I won't disagree, for field use. The powder does need to be back next to the primer. I don't use a filler, since mine are plinkers, (and fired from single shots) I simply point the muzzle straight up after chambering the round and then lower it down to level to aim and shoot. I've never had a problem but can't say you won't, so I don't recommend doing what I do to anyone else.
I wouldn't waste a jacketed bullet in any load moving less than 1200fps, but its your money.
…A lot of people post on the internet using Unique for this round, but I wouldn't. If it was safe, the data would be in the manuals.
Here we go again. 44 AMP covered most of it, but in fact the Unique data the OP posted is in a manual. My Lyman Cast Bullet Manual lists loads for lever actions with up to 15.0 grains of Unique under a 293-grain cast bullet, and up to 13.5 grains under a 420-grain cast slug. For stronger actions, 17.5 grains were considered safe at 38,700 CUP.
The BlueDot data is anecdotal so deserves the standard disclaimer. I like BlueDot due to its bulk density, which fills the big rimmed case more than Unique does. I don’t use a filler - Lyman stopped recommending or listing filler data several decades ago. But fast powders are not for everyone, they may be low velocity and low recoil, but they may not be low pressure. If they make you nervous then try slower, more conventional powders.
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Well I did some shooting
I didn't have any suitable bullets so I thickly powdercoated some bullets that came out of a 45 Colt mold, the 255 gr. RF mold which brought them up to around .460. I shot them with 28.0 grains if I4227 and there was not enough pressure to obturate the cases leaving my cases smoked up and a lot of powder fouling. Next up was 31.0 grains of same powder and this left the cases and bore clean and gave good accuracy but my front sight is too short and the bullets hit a foot high at 25 yards. I put a different taller front sight and base on the rifle and now it hits 4 inches too low! Hmm So then in the interest of science I tried 14.0 grains of Unique under the same bullet. Shot great, light recoil. Well then I realized I had some .458 jacketed bullets. These are 300 gr. Ballistic tips that came in orange sabots for a muzzleloader. I put an old Weaver 4 power with a post retical and sighted it in with a load of 32.5 grains of I 4227 (worked down to from 36.0 grs)under the Nosler bullet. All is good, excellent accuracy and acceptable recoil. I can do my Big Thicket hunt with this load but will play more with cast bullets when my sizer die gets here.
I didn't have any suitable bullets so I thickly powdercoated some bullets that came out of a 45 Colt mold, the 255 gr. RF mold which brought them up to around .460. I shot them with 28.0 grains if I4227 and there was not enough pressure to obturate the cases leaving my cases smoked up and a lot of powder fouling. Next up was 31.0 grains of same powder and this left the cases and bore clean and gave good accuracy but my front sight is too short and the bullets hit a foot high at 25 yards. I put a different taller front sight and base on the rifle and now it hits 4 inches too low! Hmm So then in the interest of science I tried 14.0 grains of Unique under the same bullet. Shot great, light recoil. Well then I realized I had some .458 jacketed bullets. These are 300 gr. Ballistic tips that came in orange sabots for a muzzleloader. I put an old Weaver 4 power with a post retical and sighted it in with a load of 32.5 grains of I 4227 (worked down to from 36.0 grs)under the Nosler bullet. All is good, excellent accuracy and acceptable recoil. I can do my Big Thicket hunt with this load but will play more with cast bullets when my sizer die gets here.
These are 300 gr. Ballistic tips that came in orange sabots for a muzzleloader.
You might want to check and see that you're not overdriving them. Bullets made to expand at muzzle loader (black powder) speed (and a bit under that as the range extends can be overdriven and over expand in game.
One example is the Speer 400gr, which is intended for good expanson at standard .45-70 speeds. Does ok up to about 1600fps, get up to 1800+ and it comes apart. Almost explosive at over 2000fps.
In contrast the Hornady 350gr RN is built for higher speeds and I've had no issues with them at 2200fps.
You see the same kind of thing with some pistol bullets when fired out of carbines. The added velocity is too much. So do some checking (call the manufacturer) and talk to them about the best speed for the bullets your're shooting.
You might want to check and see that you're not overdriving them. Bullets made to expand at muzzle loader (black powder) speed (and a bit under that as the range extends can be overdriven and over expand in game…
That shouldn’t be a problem, unlike old school blackpowder rifles, modern muzzleloaders achieve velocities of over 2000 fps, the Nosler bullet will handle that. But the point is a good one, just because the bullet is heavy in weight doesn’t mean it’s heavily constructed.
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GeauxTide said:When I had a 45-70, the recommended powder was 4198. 35gr gave me 1500fps with 405 LFN. The only handgun powder listed in loaddata.com was 2400 in an 1873 Trapdoor. I use Unique in my 45 Colt handloads. A lot of people post on the internet using Unique for this round, but I wouldn't. If it was safe, the data would be in the manuals.
+1 . I ocassionally use a mild 1200 fps 4198 load for my 1884 Trap Door. Got this load over at Cast Boolits from a very well seasoned TD loader. I also load true BP but sometimes i'm just in the mood to shoot with minimal post shooting cleanup and the 4198 load is a nice clean shooting day.
sourdough44
New member
I generally have 3 load levels for my 45-70s. The lightest is with IMR-4227, I use a modest ‘filler’. My filler is a type of Dacron from stuffed critters. I go just enough to keep powder in place, not packed.
After that I go with IMR-4198. I have one 1884 Trapdoor, then a modern Henry.
After that I go with IMR-4198. I have one 1884 Trapdoor, then a modern Henry.