Unexpected Results...

J

JoeShmoe

Inactive
Hey everyone,

First off want to introduce myself as I'm new to these forums. I'm Joe, and recently made my first gun purchase about a month ago. Am now the proud owner of a Ruger SR9!

Anyway, I've been searching for a good self defense round, and among other things have been taking muzzle energy into account. I'm assuming the more energy imparted to a target, the greater the damage. I pulled some data from an article I read, specifically using the SR9 with a variety of 9mm ammo. Here's a link to the article:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/st_sr9ruger_200803/index3.html

Here are the results of my analysis, and to be honest I was a bit surprised:

9mmenergy.png


The round packing the most energy was Remington's 88 gr. JHP. Provided it doesn't pass through the target, wouldn't this be the best defensive round, as opposed to say the 147 gr. subsonic rounds? It's counter-intuitive that the bullet with the least mass would have the highest energy, but then again, it is about 300 ft/sec faster than the rest.

Thoughts?
 
I've heard good things about Gold Dot ammo. But going simply off of the numbers, wouldn't Remington's 426 ft-lbs. of energy be better to unload into a target as opposed to Speer's 364 ft-lbs?
 
Energy isn't the only factor.

I've not seen tests with that 88gr Remmie. I'd like to see some gel data.

OK. In order for a handgun bullet to work right, it has to expand AND punch to at least 12" to 13" in "calibrated ordinance gelatin". And do so even if the gel is covered by multiple layers of cloth first - four layers of denim is traditional.

You also don't want the expanded nose to fragment. Basically, if a hollowpoint bullet is driven too fast, the nose section will expand and then come apart. The bullet drops back to close to the original diameter and is now lighter by usually about 1/4th. And in such cases the nose is usually fairly rounded, which is a poor shape for serious wounding.

One reason Gold Dot slugs (made by Speer but also loaded by other smaller ammo houses) are popular is that the copper jacket is a heavy electroplate over the lead core. The copper and lead very rarely separate, and will only do so if it's seriously "overdriven". Shoot one of the hotter 357 flavors for example out of an 18" rifle and it might happen with a Gold Dot, likely WILL happen with anything else.

What all this means is, big energy numbers only help if you have a projectile tuned to use the resulting speed properly and reliably.

Study carefully Brassfetcher's site on the 9mm, both his older data:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/9mm Luger.html

...and new:

http://brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1794.htm

Referring to the newer page, note how the Remington designs tested (124gr and 147gr) worked very well, but the Magtech failed. A low-grade projectile was driven too fast, producing nice "energy numbers" on the side of the box but also ammo that just doesn't work as well as it could.

Even under some very harsh conditions, the Gold Dots tend to still work:

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Speer 124gr +P Gold Dot versus automobile windshield and gelatin.html

In a 9mm handgun, unless I had solid data saying something else was better, I'd shoot 124gr Gold Dot projectiles as fast as I could fling 'em out: Speer's +P load isn't bad, but smaller ammo houses Doubletap and Buffalo Bore load them even hotter and I'd use those if possible. Buffalo Bore gets more energy than Speer out of this slug:

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=122
 
Actually, it's not that unusual for lighter bullets to have higher muzzle energy. The kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of its velocity, so velocity has a greater effect on kinetic energy than mass.

The 147 grain bullets have the most momentum of the loads on the chart. What do you think about that? :p
 
Other factors than energy in bullet/load selection

JoeShmoe said:
Hey everyone,

First off want to introduce myself as I'm new to these forums. I'm Joe, and recently made my first gun purchase about a month ago. Am now the proud owner of a Ruger SR9!

Anyway, I've been searching for a good self defense round, and among other things have been taking muzzle energy into account.
Click to expand...

Welcome to the forum and to gun ownership. Congratulations on underaking such an orderly search into terminal bellistics in such a thorough manner.

As you no doubt know, the science of terminal ballistics (the effects of bullets on whatever they hit) is wide and deep and is clouded with lots of anecdotal evidence and personal opinion.

Here is my personal opinion: Energy shreds flesh, momentum breaks bone. This applies especially well to big game, but to people as well. I suggest you add a "Momentum" column to your spreadsheet. And use felocities you are likely to get out of your SR9 if you can get them.

But there are other considerations as well. Effects of misses and the possibility of overpenetration are two. Also, in hunting, you want to kill as quickly as possible, and if not a one-shot kill, you want to create lots of bleeding to provide an easy-to-track blood trail.

But here's the big difference. In most jurisdictions, shooting to kill is not legal. Most laws passed authorize the use of deadly force only to the point of making the perpetrator of bad acts stop doing whatever it was that gave you the right to use deadly force. Once he stops, your right to use deadly force ends.

As it turns out, a good hollowpoint generally does that better than a solid bullet of the same diameter. This makes death less likely because you punch fewer holes to get him to stop. But hollowpoints need energy to make them expand. (Deforming the bullet consumes some of that energy.) It is hard to ensure any given bullet will expand whether you hit a heavy jacket, abdominal flesh or shoulder bone.

There is a "performance envelope" for any given bullet wherein it will expand. if it is travelling with more energy than that envelope, and encounters a medium tough enough, the bullet may "explode" into many pieces (fragmentation) that makes it less effective at stopping a bad guy. If below that envelope, it may not expand at all and produce a small wound with little effect, similar to the typical military ball ammo (or full metal jacket round nose) which has less "stopping power" than an expanding bullet that smacks a target (the bad guy) with more suddenness.

Then there is clothing. In winter, when thicker clothing is typically worn, you may want a bullet of stronger construction that will not start its expansion until AFTER it has penetrated to its target. In summer, the opposite might apply.

Then there are the other questions: If a bullet goes completely through its target, in a hunting situation there is usually little probability of an innocent civilian catching the still-deadly bullet. In a crowd situation, the possibility is very real. So you might want a bullet like the Glaser Safety Slug which is designed to break up inside a subject and not pass completely through a person or even exterior walls of a building.

Lots of considerations.

Check out this thread wherein a new shooter has been in the process of selecting a self defense gun (and ammuntion) for a couple of weeks now. It's a good one.

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370031
or, if the link does not work, paste this into your web browser
thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370031

Lastly, find out what your local police use (if they use guns similar to yours -delivered velocity and twist rate have major effects on expansion and most forget the centrifugal forces- and have a department authorized list) and, if you can, find out what decision making process they used to make the choice(s).

Keep up the good work. You have made an excellent start. I admire your organization.

Lost Sheep
 
Just a slight flame...

with all of this I see a gun owner with thick glasses, pocket protector with multi colored pens and pencils, and of course a slide rule or programable calculator....

don't be a gun/ammo nerd!

Geez... any good modern hydroshock (they used to call them hollow points you know) round will work.

Welcome from a fellow Ruger owner.
 
As others have alluded to, the numbers lie (or, more correctly, fail to tell the whole story).

Current modern ballistic calculation is super simple: it is merely mass x velocity^2. There is no value for momentum because no one's figured out how to satisfactorily calculate it. To compensate, some folks suggest dropping the exponent on the velocity value, but that's not really accurate either. Anyway, quality cartridge selection really winds up boiling down to looking at the technical ballistics, looking at the tests conducted (usually in things like ballistic gelatin), looking at any service history the round may have (Gold Dots have a well deserved reputation in the real world, for example), looking at the bullet design, and basically going with your gut from there.

I know, doesn't sound very scientific, but that's how most (all?) of us wind up doing it.

As a side note: the comprehensive testing over the years by numerous law enforcement institutions has demonstrated that in the 9mm caliber, 115gr or more in bullet weight is desireable in real world defense situations. As for 115 vs 124/125 vs 147, that's a much trickier debate (though I myself like and carry 124gr +Ps)..

For bullet design, all I'll personally carry is Speer Gold Dots and Federal HSTs, though several other designs are still quite good.
 
Mass is your friend. All the muzzle energy in the world doesn't mean a thing if a lightweight bullet expends it in penetrating a couple of layers of clothing. Momentum is the word, and heavier bullets rule when it comes to that.
 
In dealing with human foes momentum is more important than kinetic energy.


Which is why people hunt dangerous game with guns producing large amounts of momentum and not JUST large amounts of kinetic energy.
 
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buckshot > birdshot LoL

the UNDERPENETRATING 88gr R-P load hasn't been available for many years..


Speer 124gr +P & 147gr Gold Dot
R-P 124gr +P & 147gr Golden Saber
Federal 124gr & 147gr HST [NOT Hydra-Shok]
W-W 127gr +P+ & 147gr Ranger T
Corbon 115gr DPX

Looky HERE for valid terminal ballistics information. It's a lot more complicated than picking the load with highest muzzle energy..

Keeping in mind that handguns generally offer poor incapacitation potential, bullets with effective terminal performance are available in all of the most commonly used duty pistol calibers—pick the one that you shoot most accurately, that is most reliable in the type of pistol you choose, and best suits you likely engagement scenarios.
Click to expand...
 
blume357: it's worth studying bullet effectiveness. If you browse around Brassfetcher's site or any other with reputable gel data, you'll find out something interesting: the Hydrashock is obsolete.

Yeah, it works, but it's no longer king of the hill.

You'll find something else, too: just looking at the same bullet weights in the same calibers, Federal tends to "wimp out". They use the smallest powder charges and lowest velocities for the same bullet types of any of the major manufacturers. Not 100% of the time; any ammo that's liable to end up in a cop's gun they'll heat back up to normal. But "civilian" stuff? Almost always on the weak side.

On edit: what you're really saying is, studying something makes you "uncool" somehow. If you want to lead a life that revels in ignorance, go for it. But don't expect us to be impressed.
 
I have used Hornady TAP in my P6. The only round I liked better was Black Talons. Use what ever feeds well in your gun.
 
The discussion won't be complete until the attorneyphobes sign on to tell you...
1. Only use ammo that your PD uses, never mind that it might suck in your gun.
2. Don't use HP's because a lawyer might say you're blood thirsty.
3. Ditto for +P
4. Don't be posting stuff like that here because a lawyer will look it up and use it against you.
5. Your SR9 has too much capacity and a lawyer could say you were bloodthirsty.
6. Pretty much anything else you decide will need to be cleared with a lawyer.

Who would have thought there were that many out of work lawyers out there trolling for business.
 
Well, I asked for thoughts, and thoughts I certainly got! Thanks everyone. I have to say that the brassfetcher links were of particular interest; thanks Jim. The performance of the Gold Dot slug was quite apparent. Now it's just a matter of actually finding someplace that actually has some in stock and seeing how it shoots!

This brings me to the point about momentum that many of you made, and I have to say that I think you guys are absolutely correct. I found an interesting article from GS Custom bullets that had a really interesting explenation on the relationship between energy and momentum in terminal ballistics. I think the following sums it up perfectly:

"...The match grade hollow point bullet broke up on impact, losing all momentum. The 220 grain bullet of more robust construction and subject to less violent forces at the lower velocity, suffered less breakup. The retained weight after impact, multiplied by the retained velocity at 100 metres, is an indication of the momentum level that carried the bullet through. From this we learn that muzzle energy and muzzle velocity are figures of academic interest alone. Impact velocity and retained weight are the figures we need to more reliably predict the terminal performance of a bullet. For want of a better term, lets call this requirement Terminal Momentum."
Click to expand...

Here's a link for those interested

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/articlemomentum.html

9mmdata2.png


Incidentally, I've noticed that the most accurate rounds in this pistol are the heavier 147 gr. rounds. I'm wondering if this is because modern service pistols have a more aggressive rate of turn in terms of rifling (My SR9 is 1/10") to ensure reliable function/performance with the heaviest and hottest loads.

And yes, my glasses are thick (if I wore any), and the pencils and calculators abound. ;)
 
nitetrane98 said:
The discussion won't be complete until the attorneyphobes sign on to tell you...
Click to expand...
Actually, based on my training and what I've read, I'd suggest using any good quality, commercial JHP ammunition that functions reliably and is accurate for you in your gun. However, also from what I've read, Gold Dot, Federal HST, Remington Golden Saber seem to be thought by many to offer a performance edge.

One thing to consider is that a particular ammunition with a particular bullet weight and velocity may offer an advantage under particular circumstances. But a different set up might offer advantages under other circumstance. But you can't predict exactly how your particular bad day will happen, so you can't necessarily pick ahead of time exactly which ammunition would be the best for you in that situation.

So any of the good quality commercial JHP rounds would be a decent choice -- as long as they work in your gun.

What really matters at the end of the day is shot placement. You need to do your part and get the bullet to where it needs to be. There is no magic bullet, and no type of ammunition will make up for poor shot placement.
 
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